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why is Deva/MSV songs are more easy listening than IR?

Topic started by other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on Tue Apr 29 10:26:31 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Ok.let me first clear up that it is not a comparison between the MD's.I feel some of the melodies of Deva and MSV are very easy listening and very pleasing than most of IR's melodies.
like
1)Koovura kuilu sevalla pathu padikkuthu pattu
film:sollaiyamma
2)priya priya priya
film:kattabomman
3)padaithaney brahma devan 16 vayathu kolam
film:??
4)muthu maniye, muzhu nilavey
film:samundi
what is the reason.
1)Is it because IR is too structured
2)Is it because SPB/SJ have a free hand with these MD's and they give there best..

can someone explain this technically

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Responses:

• From: Lord LabakuDas (@ 12.162.224.6) on: Tue Apr 29 18:05:53 EDT 2003
  
  What kind of uneasiness did you feel when you listen to IR songs?Select one from the following
  Thala Vali,vanthi,Piththam,Kabam,Ajeeranam,Vaatham,Kannerichal,kaathu kudaichal,heart attack,madras-eye,naga suthithi,throat pain,cold,fever,joints pain,mudi uthirthal,sori,sirangu,padai,Vayathu vali,Muthugu vali,brain fever(if u hav 1),vaai punnu,irumal..
  yaravathu complete pannungappa..time aachu..
  
  
• From: jeera (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Tue Apr 29 20:08:08 EDT 2003
  
  LLD, ROTFL
  
  
• From: shwetha (@ 203.195.193.138) on: Tue Apr 29 21:20:28 EDT 2003
  
  lol@lld
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Apr 29 21:56:14 EDT 2003
  
  I think you guys are mistaking the original poster. I feel he is not saying IR songs are bad. I think IR is mainly doing fusion all the time. So it is not a pure indian melody. The melody is kinda restrained to be played along with the chords. The singing is done along with the accompaniment of bass/rhythm guitar, so it is not 'stand-alone'. There is also the violins ..whose playing is tightly coordinated with the main melody. So, the mind has to listen to multiple things going on at the same time and still feel it is one whole thing. Listen to oh nenjame from enakkaaga kaaththiru in dhool.com. See the strings singing along with the singer in the charanams and the bass guitar in the pallavi.
  It is quite possible some people might interpret the monophonic indian melody as 'easy' to listen to.
  
  
• From: Mumbai Ramki (@ 203.197.24.195) on: Wed Apr 30 00:08:40 EDT 2003
  
  Kiru ,
  good posting yaar ....
  
  
• From: Deva's Gaana Kotte (@ 216.127.82.97) on: Wed Apr 30 01:23:57 EDT 2003
  
  ada aaka kette peh poonda mavanne,
  
  If you really believe there is even one deva song more listenable than any IR song, then the whole world knows what have you been listening to all this while. You ought to be shot right in your koothi!
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Wed Apr 30 09:46:05 EDT 2003
  
  kiru... thanxs for ur posting man.... exactly that is what i wanted to know...when i think in that angle.I can see that most of these songs that i mentioned didn't have that much orchestration.they had one or two instruments and that made more focus on the singer...
  
  how about the melody as such.Are these melodies based on raagas that are more familiar to us, or based on songs more familiar to us???
  
  
  Deva's gaana ...
  i would appreciate if you restrain yourself from using bad words.It is not that, it needs a great effort to type these words and i cannot do it.I is easy to let out things , but hard to restrain.Friend I would appriciate you raising your point minus the bad words.
  
  answering your quesion.I am a big Maestro fan.And i am not comparing Deva with IR.I made that very clear on the posting.But i loved those deva songs that i posted.
  "Sollaimma"
  "vasantha kala paravaigal"
  "kizhakku karai"
  "AAtha un kovilile"
  "Purusha Latchinam"
  "En Aasai Machan"
  
  All these movies have som great melodies... and i like them too :)...If you really want to know what i have been listening all these while why dont you join me in the
  "Yaetho ninaivugal" thread....
  
  
• From: mythila (@ 137.237.13.20) on: Wed Apr 30 11:13:37 EDT 2003
  
  Dr.LLD , neenga thaan ennai maadiri TFM paithiyangalukku sariyaana vaithiyar!!!
  LOL!!!
  
  
• From: mythila (@ 137.237.13.20) on: Wed Apr 30 11:23:07 EDT 2003
  
  other_side , atleast few of Deva's films u have mentioned here (esp sollaiamma, aatha un kovilile, en aasai machhan )are directly inspired from IR's simple, down to earth Gramathu melodies like enga oor kaavalkaaran, paatukaaran, thekku theru machaan, themaangu paatukaaran, puthu nellu puthu naathu,avaarampoo etc.These songs are just simple yet sweet tunes using flute as the major instrument.
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Wed Apr 30 11:48:43 EDT 2003
  
  mythila hold on hold on... i want to stop everyone here.Iam not here to compare deva with IR, or say what are the inspiration songs...
  BTW therkku theru machan is by deva
  
  The question is simple.... i feel some MSV/Deva song are very easy to listen comparing to IR and other MD's(This is my opinion).Iam just curious what is the reason behind it.Let me put it this way, i agree that the songs are inspired from the maestro's song.but aren't they more pleasing than the original one.why??.is it because of the reason that they were not tightly packed with the orchestration as kiru said?? what happenned in the transition. Iam just looking at the technical side of it.so please dont divert the quesiton and dont jump in with your fav MD's flag.
  
  kiru kind of addressed my question.i still have a question regarding the melody and iam looking for an answer.Even Ir and other directors have composed songs with one flute and tabla.but i feel the melody is more pleasing with these two.why is that.
  
  Iam not much into music.but i know that if you start a song in one chord you kind of have to stick to that chord or the relative chords.Is MSV and deva not doing that and IR is strictly following it or something?.May be iam completely wrong here.please correct me experts..
  
  
• From: x (@ 209.47.143.226) on: Wed Apr 30 12:44:20 EDT 2003
  
  other_side,
  
  what kind of crap is this, man?!
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Wed Apr 30 12:50:06 EDT 2003
  
  x:
  its all written above.i guess you know english..
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Apr 30 13:58:09 EDT 2003
  
  About Deva - my personal opinion - he is a 'son of the soil' :) :) so there is a native/indian feel to his songs. He is also a natural and I find his music 'genuine'..Having not trained that much on WCM (I am guessing), Deva's native sense of melody and rhythm gives him away easily (atleast to me) even though he tries to imitate IR in either guitar chord usage or in bass guitar usage. I also have liked some of his songs. He is a pretty good musician. But IR, is far ahead in terms of sophistication, knowledge and creativity. This surely does not reduce my respect for Deva. I only wish he trusted his skills more and not resort to blatant copying. I am told he does good work if you pay him well. When the pay is less (sometimes as low as 4 or lakhs of rupess) you get copied/recycled stuff.
  
  Re: easy to listen to - I think it is mainly the chords/harmony that is producing this effects. MSV also has used chords (especially in prelude, interlude, pallavi), but somehow IR seems to go 'too far' from the point of view of indian music aficianados. IR also uses indian scales (ragams) to compose, but it is this chords which are making a difference. Ofcourse, the gamakams have to be dispensed with so the chords have their place. Sometimes you feel the melody instead of being smooth like a sine wave, it is a bit more like a saw tooth, but it is smoothed out by the chords. IR, at one point of time, was using bass guitar with even conspicuously carnatic songs. In ivann, he did pure carnatic compositions and many IR fans complained it was not 'filmy' enough.
  
  Again, IR is trying to bring some Western music to us. In our country, one person sings, others play/follow the thaalam. In western music, when one sings, others try to play harmony (on a piano or a guitar etc). IR tries to do both, the tabla giving you the thalam and the guitar the chords. Listen to un kuththama in azhagi - a definitely simple indian/rustic melody adorned by guitar chords.
  
  Please use the 'Chords section in Dhool' thread. Even though, I am not music savvy, I listen to the songs, with the chord notes in front of me. You become more aware of the various facets of a song this way.
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Wed Apr 30 14:30:15 EDT 2003
  
  kiru thanxs again for the great posting ......
  I will sure follow the Chords section in dhool from now on.
  
  "Sometimes you feel the melody instead of being smooth like a sine wave, it is a bit more like a saw tooth, but it is smoothed out by the chords".
  
  Exactly...I have the same feeling.I feel that there is an easy flow in some of deva's song.I can understand to a great extend why it is so now.
  
  "Ofcourse, the gamakams have to be dispensed with so the chords have their place".
  kiru Could you please elaborate on this line.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: happy (@ 68.21.2.205) on: Wed Apr 30 14:53:15 EDT 2003
  
  useless thread ,pl close it.
  
  
• From: x (@ 209.47.143.226) on: Wed Apr 30 15:07:21 EDT 2003
  
  The topic of the forum 'why is Deva/MSV songs are more easy listening than IR?' --
  
  Such a comparison can only be made subjectively but cannot be made in general. For example, If you say that 'kanne kalaimane' and 'pacha mala poovu' are hard to listen to when compared with Deva's melodies, you please tell me which are those Deva's song that you are using for such a comparison. Similarly the songs from solaiamma, samundi, kattabomman etc.. when you say that these songs easy to listen when compared to IR's songs, I am curous to know which are those IR songs you were comparing them with.
  
  Also are you really saying that if a simple melodious tune is accompanied with sophisticated orchestration and intelligent use of chords, then it becomes less pleasing to your ears?. Are you saying that Deva's songs are easy to listen to because those songs dont have that sophestication? I don't get it. MSV and Deva have produced many melodies, no question about that but I won't say that their melodies are more easy to listen to compared to IR's.
  
  btw, if the title of this forum was like
  "why some of Deva/MSV songs are more easy listening than IR?", then I probably wouldn't have said that it's a crap...sorry.
  
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 217.44.99.184) on: Wed Apr 30 15:19:54 EDT 2003
  
  Because you need some sort of music rasanai or gnanam to appreciate IR's creativity.
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Wed Apr 30 16:05:57 EDT 2003
  
  Sam:
  my question was not why deva's songs are "creative".....
  
  X:
  YOU ARE RIGHT i guess i should have posted it as
  "why SOME OF Deva/MSV songs...." iam not talking about all the gana songs here.Iam talking about few melodies.If i had the musical knowledge to express what is the crux of the problem then i guess i got my answer also.
  
  
  i accept that sometimes unsophesticated music is easy listening.As kiru pointed out, our indian music style is not into heavy orchestration with the song. i think some melodies dont need heavy orchestration.you are not going to say "rakkamma kaiiya thattu" as a pleasing melody cause it was well orchestrated.
  
  let's take an example you mentioned
  "pachamaalai poovuuu(X) Nee uchi mala thennuu(X)
  kuthangurai ethu(X)Nee nandhavanna theru(X)
  
  poo nathu(X) mugam pathu(XX)(i think there is a small harmoney bit here)"
  
  the (X) here i mention is a small gap before the next line.take the samundi song for example
  
  "muthu maniyeee(X) muzhu neelaveyyy(X)
  XXXX sudareeyy(X) kodi malareyyy(X)
  ennum silla perivigal(X)unnudaiya XXXXX..."
  
  the(X) gap here is very less.the prolongation of maniyeee to the next word muzhu seems like there is no gap.there seems to be a continuous flow.You can see this style in many deva's song.It kind of gives you a easy flow.
  
  Maybe there are lot of IR's song also in this style.but a combination of unsophesticated music orchestration, and other things make me feel that some of deva's melodies are more pleasing than IR's.i wanted to know what is the reason and that's why i raised this question.I am not a big expert in music and i thought i will ask few experts in the TFM.
  
  --------------------------------------------------
  So if you feel my question and want to contribute or add to it.please do,otherwise MOVE ON.
  THIS IS NOT A TOPIC I STARTED FOR BASHING OR LOWERING SOME MD'S.
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