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Is IR comparable to Great Western Classical Musicians in Terms of Music Complexity and Quality ?

Topic started by siva (@ makom.fkm.utm.my) on Wed Jun 3 03:56:28 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

IR is long known to be a great composer.But how far does he differ or on par with great western classical composers like Bach,Betthoven and Mozart....?

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Responses:

• From: sankaran (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Wed Jun 3 05:17:05 EDT 1998
  
  There are several reasons to believe that IR is as good as Mozart or Bach.Any discerning listener of the piece which had Mozart in it's name(I think it is I love Mozart) in Nothing but wind would vouch for the ingenuity of IR.Many of his earlier film songs had authentic western classical music in the interludes(examples could be Paruvmae..from nenjathai killadhae,Putham puthu kaalai... from MurattuKkaaLai ).I liked many of his movies just for the re-recording which had true WCM with great orchestration.Last but not the least,the Royal Philharmonic's invitation to compose a symphony should clear any further doubts about his credentials.I firmly believe that no Indian(including Zubin Mehta) has done so much good WCM as IR has done.
  
  But I don't think it is a very good idea to compare Mozart with IR.They are people who lived 200 years apart.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jun 3 10:49:33 EDT 1998
  
  How can you compare these great Western Composers with IR? IR is a fantastic composer, but he has been influenced very much by Mozart(he even visited his grave, in Austria when he was doing 'How to name it'), Bach and Beethoven.....If at all you try to make comparisons between old composers, look at the Greats of Carnatic Music like Thyagarajar or Dikshitar, for their brilliance in calculations, tala and ragam exposition in thier compositions. You can't compare IR to people like that, as they are his "inspiration".

  The Classical part of music for Western and Eastern can be debated, but Film music cannot be compared in the same way. IR brought out for the 'masses' the best of both worlds, Carnatic and Western Classical, but he used both forms of music as his inspiration. It is like saying IR and Shyama Sastri are on par with each other.....How can this be possible?

  Making comparisons with contemporary artistes with ARR, MSV, Visvanathan-Ramamoorthy, R D Burman would be appropriate, but not with Mozart, who was a revelation in himself, but who IR has 'lifted'(I say this looseley...not to cause controversy) music from, in order to enhance his compositions, to give them a different 'colour' and dimension....

  'Poonkathave' is a very good example of IR's fusion of West with East.....using Mayamalavagowla ragam, with a symphony of Western instruments and Western style interludes.....Other examples are 'Poovile medhai naan paadavaa' from Pagalil oru Nilavu.

• From: T.Madhan,Goa. (@ 202.41.117.55) on: Wed Jun 3 09:03:56 EDT 1998
  
  First of all, what is this "COMPLEXITY IN MUSIC " all about ?
  
  Given the complexity,if a music piece refuses/fails to be haunting/melodious, then the whole purpose is lost.
  To quote IR , " Yennadhaan kashtappatu, niraiyya vaathhiyangal ubayogithhu isai amaithhalum, yelimaiyaana isaiyyai amaippadhey migavum kadinam "
  
  Let us confuse COMPLEXITY with the Spontaneity - if one has observed, IR has been giving good music pieces throughout - but,when on many occasions, he experiences sudden bouts of music inspired creativity , he gives masterpieces like "How to name it ?" - IR himself has said about this once.
  
  Every creative artiste, be it a dancer, a musician, an artist, or for that matter, a KUYAVAN ,a sculptor, a carpenter - whoever it is, needs to be restless - YES, RESTLESSNESS is an essential pre-requisite for anybody who wants to accomplish things in life -
  take a carpenter as an example - when he/she (let me not be accused of gender bias) is given the job of making a cot -if he just hammers nails into various components and gives you the product, the product will not last long .Instead, if the same cot is made by carefully selecting the quality of wood, cutting into appropriate sizes and make a cot which has DETACHABLE COMPONENTS just one fitting into the other into grooves, then he is a skilled carpenter, whose product would give you comfort and durability - one should not "Miss the woods for the trees " .
  
  Music by Beethoven or Mozart or painting by Salvador Dali etc., was the result of the undying thirst for something in all of these people -don't ask me what is their source of inspiration.
  
  When one listens to "O! niley gagan ki thaley " from HUMRAAZ , or " Tharai mel pirakka vaithhaan ", or " Raasaathhi yennusuru yenndhillai", or
  " Pottu vaithha oru vatta nila", what stands out is the SIMPLICITY not the COMPLEXITY - even Beethoven's "Fur elise" - the famous music which is often played while over telephone lines, while we asked to STANDBY, has the same quality of simplicity.
  
  Listen to the interludes of "Rojappu aadivandhadhu" or,"Ottagathha kattikko" - what stands out is the ACCESSIBILITY OF THE MUSIC TO OUR EARS ,DESPITE THE WELL ORCHESTRATED COMPLEXITY .
  Perhaps, we should discuss ,
  
  "SIMPLICITY AT ITS COMPLEX BEST " or,
  
  "THE COMPLEX DIMENSIONS OF SIMPLICITY IN MUSIC ", or,
  
  "COMPLEXITY , IN ALL ITS SIMPLIFIED GLORY "
  
  
• From: Madhan,Goa (@ 202.41.117.55) on: Wed Jun 3 09:07:14 EDT 1998
  
  A SMALL,BUT IMPORTANT CORRECTION -
  
  "Let us CONFUSE complexity with Spontaneity"
  should be read as "Let us NOT CONFUSE COMPLEXITY WITH SPONTANEITY"
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Wed Jun 3 10:17:11 EDT 1998
  
  To say that Beethoven, Bach and Mozart and Thyagarajar and Syama shastri were not influenced/inspired by their predecessors and contemporaries is naive to say the least.
  
  Bach was the epitome of baroque music but there were several others in this style. Ditto for Beethoven and Mozart. Thyagarajar did not invent carnatic music he happens to be a successful exponent of this form. Thyagarajar has been made into a GOD but he was a human and a musician much like IR. If people Nithin succeed in making a GOD out of Raja two hundred years from now there will be no difference between how history sees Raja & Thyagarajar.
  
  I am not trying to create a controversy but all I am saying is that nobody is a suyambu - which includes Bach & Mozart & Beethoven & Thyagarajar.
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Wed Jun 3 22:36:04 EDT 1998
  
  PG
  
  There is one chief quality that is the hallmark of the greatest classical composers from both India and the West. Perfection. The great composers whose names have not been said in vain in this thread all have the one underlying fiber that weaves into their creations and brings out music that is flawless.
  
  In my personal opinion, I have raised Raja to the level of a God, even when I heard his first sting of songs, when in the late seventies. To this day, I have never questioned that belief of mine as for many of us, this TFM is proof enough that a lesser entity cannot have influenced the sustenance of such an ongoing discussion.
  
  I cannot analyse technical aspects of Mozart's or Thyagarajar's compositions. To my knowledge they have been to a great degree been Raja's influence much as musicians in the before the 17th centuries could have influenced the creativity and levels of perfection that the great maestros in India and the West could achieve. Some research can easily help us learn more about that.
  
  About Raja being on par with the great Maestro' there can be no questions. Raja can be seen as a point of culmination for innovation in music can spiral down to. Raja has studied what has been done before and what still remains to be done. In the most imaginative way that creative intelligence can forge to the remotest corners of musical endeavours, Raja with his limitless abilities to innovate and variate has made music succumb to the infinite many diffirent moods and patterns that Raja wanted to depict as per the demands of the situation for which he composed the songs.
  
  What I am trying to say is Raja has achieved very high levels of perfection composing music for all imaginable human moods and emotions using a wide variety of musical intruments, arranged to perfection in many different ways that I have not come across anyone to this date who has had that imaginative prowess to present music not in its raw form, but in forms bedecked with the most intricate ornaments found in the most beautiful corners of a clear and precise mind.
  
  In the final analysis, three more qualities make Raja incomparable, a thousand different moods, various distinct arrangements and one more, the distinct individuality of each composition.
  
  PG, I am not able to give examples here, because there are too many aspects involved to make this discussion meaningful and it will be at the cost of length and the ingenuity of this topic. I don't think comparisons should be called for. However, I am here questioning your remark about me calling Raja a God. It is my belief and to my knowledge, I have not come across any other creative intelligence of this earth who would bring that much awe and respect.
  
  You may not call him a God today, however after 200 years I am sure Raja is definitely will be considered the most mysterious creations of God, so much that he will be called a God. I mean, I think...
  
  
• From: siva (@ makom.fkm.utm.my) on: Wed Jun 3 23:14:10 EDT 1998
  
  to all the friends out there...actually what i mean by complexity in music is the degree of conterpoints and variety of melodies used in a piece of music...this sort of phenomena is largely observed in symphonies..quality is not merely depends upon recording alone..but also covers the appropiate usage of instruments....
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Thu Jun 4 00:14:14 EDT 1998
  
  First and foremost, why this fixation with the Western "Greats". There is lot of music in this world. And lot of it has given rise to great geniuses. So only talking about Western Greats makes no sense .
  
  Second, the forms of music is totally different. The Western Classical form has a base which is very different from Indian Music. My personal belief is that you have to be a part of the culture to appreciate that form. So if the Symphony of IR doesnt come close to what Morzart or Bach has done, it is fine. Raja and Rahman come from a culture which is very different from the one which Bach and Beethovan came from. I have a question to ask to someone who says that Raja or Rahman cannot do what Bach or Beethovan has done. Can Bach or Beethovan give music to films and could they have been as successful as MSV or Raja or Rahman? I dont think they would have been suceessful. Dont scorn and tell me that the greats need not compose for film music. I dont believe film music is something degraded. I firmly believe that if any great composer of Western Music comes to India and gives music for our films, the chances of him being a hit are remote. This is because he will not understand our upbringing and our taste, however great a genius he may be.
  
  Will continue....
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Thu Jun 4 00:21:59 EDT 1998
  
  Suresh
  
  Hope this question does not hurt your feelings. How does AR Rahman figure in when in comes to spontaneity, intricacy and perfection? I clearly miss the point. AR Rahman should not figure at least in this discussion. We are talking of classical music that which can stand the test of time and can never be forgotten, always hiding within itself that timeless mystery and ingenuity.
  
  Plainly, please do not bring ARR here. There is something original about the geniuses here!
  
  

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