Best MD forever award of TFM goes to..... because....

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Best MD forever award of TFM goes to..... because.... Best MD forever award of TFM goes to..... because....

Topic started by Raj (@ dhcp80-32.ee.ufl.edu) on Tue Aug 5 19:49:44 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: Heeheehee (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Tue Aug 5 20:34:55 EDT 1997

Goes to .... Deva!
Because ... he offers the best of everybody!
From: Isai Priyan (@ proxyf11.cyberway.com.sg) on: Wed Aug 6 08:03:23 EDT 1997

Definetly MSV. When all others were adopting the carnatic style (lakshanas), MSV is the one who simplified the tunes to attract the mass. That's why, he is called MELLISAI MANNAR. Others just followed MSVs style.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Wed Aug 6 10:46:23 EDT 1997

IR undoubtedly. No one can perform so well and stand apart in a such a competitive market.
From: Gopal (@ host-207-53-3-35.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Wed Aug 6 11:21:19 EDT 1997

Deva! Who else is capable of doing so much knowing so little??
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tp03.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Aug 6 14:29:40 EDT 1997

Viswanathan-Ramamurthy/ MSV for establishing a separate identity for movie songs in an era dominated by carnatic and hindustani classical. What (and who) followed was a natural evolution of the evolution in technology in musical instruments & recording and the evolution of a "global" fusion culture in music and other facets of life.
From: Thenraja Kaliappan (@ 167.193.67.47) on: Wed Aug 6 15:25:45 EDT 1997

I will go with Isai Priyan and Kanchana:
MSV(with and without TKR) for laying a solid foundation for modern-day music.
From: msv_ninaithu_mugathil_punnagaiyudan (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Thu Aug 7 02:42:30 EDT 1997

ALL TIME BEST MD in TFM is undoubtedly
"mellisai mannar" MSViswanathan.
MSV's strength was in making facinatingly melodious tunes.
MSV was enormously versatile and extremely quick in the uptake.
MSV is the one who introduced innovative orchestration and interludes.
MSV is the topper in the list of all-time hit tunes of TFM
When he was at his peak, almost every song was a hit.
MSV was also more productive in terms of number of movies and hit songs.
MSV's involvment in making songs was very sincere.
Todays most of BGM patterns/standards were started by him.
Even after 35 years MSV pAdalgaL tharum niraivu, magilchi vEra ethilum illai.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ liberty.nus.edu.sg) on: Thu Aug 7 03:27:12 EDT 1997

InnOru idaththilE Nammaooru kEtta maadhiri, ingE
Raj enbavar oru "Gnanappazha" "siNdu-mudippu" kELvi
kEttirukkaar. Sari nammOda karuththai solvOm:

Enakkoru kaadhali irukkindraaL
avaL Ezhu swarangaLil sirikkindraaL
...
ennudan vaazhum innoru jeevan
mellisaiyaagum ennaaLum
vaiyagam yaavum en pugazh pEsum

endru paadi rewards patri avvaLavu worry paNNaamal
than muzhu moochchaiyum isaiyil Ottiya
Mellisai Mannar-thaanga
ENAKKU best MD. Inimaiyaana, manadhai kaandham
pOl izhukkum tunes pOduvadhil avarukku iNaiyillai
enbadhu en kaNippu.

(Note the 'enakku' in caps;
obviously the choice is highly dependant
on the stage of TFM history at which
you were born and the stage at which TFM
made a deep imprint in your mind. cp avargal
thirumbi thirumbi indha vishayaththai sollittaanga.
Eninum, It is nice to see opinions; I think
that's the aim of this query.)
From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Thu Aug 7 04:31:18 EDT 1997

True, MSV is THE melody king. But,IMO,
lyrics played a strong role in making
his songs memorable(e.g. apoorva
raagangal).

When one takes into account all musical
aspects(on which one should judge
MUSIC directors), Ilayaraja scores over
all.

melody: senthaazham poovil, chinnakannan
azhaikkiraan, kaalai paniyil aadum malargal,
oru vaanavil polE, etc etc.. list endless

rhythm: malai koyil vaasalil, many songs

orchestration: andhimazhai, poonkathave
thaazhthiravaai, aagaaya gangai, singappu
rojaakkal songs,etc. (I want to know MSV's
best orchestrations. Anyone?)

creative interpretation of classical
ragas: sindhu bairavi, kaadhal oviyam, koyil
puraa, etc..

Ippadi sollikitte pogalaam. Isayin
pala dimensions-ai IRaja kaanbitha
alavukku ithu varai TFM-il yaarum
kaanbikka villai. He is THE BEST!

p.s.: Isyai patri muzhu moochudan MSV
irunthirunthaal LR Eswari vivagaaram,
Ramamoorthy ladaai eppadi vanthathu? ;-)
From: Thenraja Kaliappan (@ 167.193.67.47) on: Thu Aug 7 07:41:16 EDT 1997

orchestration:
'Yenge nimmadhi' - Puthia Paravai, songs from 'Anbe vaa' , 'Ulagam Sutrum valipan' ...
From: pallavaram pakkiri (@ passport.proxy.lucent.com) on: Thu Aug 7 10:50:54 EDT 1997

raasaa raaman avargale,
adhu enna LR Eswari vivagaaram? ippadi kisu kisu style'il konjam koori vittu mandaiyai piyththu kolla vaithu vitteergale, nyaayamaa idhu?
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Thu Aug 7 12:13:29 EDT 1997

I agree with Rajaraman. He was the first MD to compose music(BG & songs) for a movie in a day. I also heard that he composed music for "Chinna thambi" (About 5 songs) within a matter of 30 minutes. He is the only MD who is said to have written musical notes in a paper and distributed it to the orchestration team for composition. Who else has done that in Tamil film music industry? I think no one but a genius could do that.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ty01.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Aug 7 13:01:26 EDT 1997

I like the Deva answers in this thread very much--they qualify for some humor award!

I'm glad to see the diverse answers supporting the different MD's. But having known the participants for a while, the nominations and the defenses are rather predictable. I wonder if we have (or would ever have soon) a real "younger generation" participant in the TFM forum who can talk about ARR's music as the music (s)he grew up with? Wonder what his/her nomination and the defense would be?
From: Gopal Prasad (@ host-207-53-4-221.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Thu Aug 7 17:20:49 EDT 1997

Raaja kaiya vachhaa
Adhu raanga ponadhille

Raaja raaja than
Pattu rosa rosaathan

Adharkaavathan isai avathaarama -naa
porandhennu boologam paaraattume

Pudhu raagam padaippadhale
naanum iraivane

Enna pethu raasaiyaannu
Peru vacha aathaathan
Ponna petha sandhoshathil
Ponal amma Kaaththathaan

Ellaraum ellathayum PEsitteenga!! Naa Pesa onnum illai. En Raasa stylela mounama irundhudaren!!
Andha isai, Andha kural, Narukkendra (impetuous !!)karuthukkal, Creatorukke uriya andha mamadhai, Chinna moorthi, Periya Keerthi,Piercing looks, Charisma, (Oh! that smile!!), Successful musical career, Innumerable innovations,Great standards, Haunting melodies, A fountainhead of tunes, Raising the quality of TFM to national, why ,international standards, broke the myth that carnatic music is just for the elite alone!! Made everyone know what a folk lore is!!Made us smell the greens of the rustic hamlets through his songs!! Made symphony a home word, Made every tamilan hold the head high!!Success in the realms of spirituality, Success in the homefront in giving the TFM future talents, etc., etc.,
If there could be someone who could inspire me with more accomplishments than what he had set out for, in his life - music, then it is ILAYARAAJA.

Many have trod in the torn path - but only
His are those indelible marks!!!

Here is a man's story, more than the rag(a)s to riches kind!! His musical genius need not be measured in terms of the innumerable numbers he has given!! But may it be measured in terms of peace he has gotten in his life, and given to the rest of the mankind!!

I end with a quote::
"The proper function of a man is to live, not to exist"
Ilayaraaja (has) lived.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ liberty.nus.edu.sg) on: Thu Aug 7 22:15:26 EDT 1997

MSV-yaiyum IR-aiyum compare pannuvadhu Newton-aiyum
Einstein-aiyum compare pannura maadhirinnu naan
ninaikkiren. Once Einstein was asked how he
his sophisticated theories are to be compared against
Newton's "much simpler" laws. Avar paNivOdu
sonna badhil: I have been able to do so much
because I was standing on Newton's shoulder
and hence I could get a much better view.

The same comment applies to MSV and IR. MSV
laid the base for TFM from which IR took off
and created so much.
We, as lovers of TFM, should be thankful to
God for sending these two geniuses at the right
point of TFM history. When ARR shot-in there was
the feeling that "Ah, here is our next man",\
but perhaps that may not be right!
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Fri Aug 8 01:12:28 EDT 1997

I agree with Sathyakirthi. IR started from a base laid by MSV. IR himself agrees that. My only varuththam is: MSV, IR pOnRa isai mEdhaigaL varisaiyil, ARR (pan masala) ai include seiyyalaamaa?

Note one big difference:

Question to IR: umakkup pidiththa MD yaar?

padhil: MSV, Ramamurthy, GRamanathan, VKumar pOnRavargaL enakku theivaththukku samam.

****************************************************

Question to ARR: umakkup pidiththa MD yaar?

padhil: G.Ramanathan, MSV, Ramamurthy, VKumar, TRPaappaa aagiyOr.

matRa kELvikaLukkuk kaalam badhil sollum
From: MSV_isai_kEtAl-puvi-asainthAdum (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Fri Aug 8 02:13:23 EDT 1997

I Think we are missing the basic criterian.
To me A BEST MD is the one who has shown variety
in tunes and given eternal songs over a period of time. THAT IS THE MAIN THING, all the other things such as creative intrepretation of ragas, symphony, making tunes in 30 min, finished whole movie in one day are secondary - as for as IR is concerned these things may show his WIDE knowledge - but the CORE to TFM FAN is a good tune with good orchestration.
In that regard MSV has achieved much more than IR
(MSV would have taken 6 months to score
Nenjam Marapathillai - so what ??).

I don't know anything about RAGAs. What I know is that every song is based on some raga - so how can we say one tune is more creative than the other ??

whatever Gopal has said about charisma
(what is keerthi/moorthy ??)
is just individual's opinion - which dosn't count
for good MD discussion (to someone MGR,NTR may be
charismatic people - to me they are jokers)

In terms of NUMBER OF GOOD SONGS WHICH CAN BE HEARD AGAIN-n-AGAIN, I think MSV tops IR.

As for as BGM, both MSV and IR has shown their
individuality and differentiated themselves
from other MDs.
From: kumar (@ 148.5.30.79) on: Fri Aug 8 02:51:06 EDT 1997

MSV made haunting melodies true. But IR
did in par with him. Still IR touched many
dimensions retaining the melody aspect.
He satisfied a classical music critic and
lay man in a single song. Showed the
world, what flok music is and gave a equal
status with other classical forms. Proved that
even songs as worse as bedroom songs and
college ganas can be given with a touch.
By many such aspects IR edges out MSV,
or atleast shares the honour with him
From: Heeheehee (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Fri Aug 8 03:47:00 EDT 1997

Appadina Devavodu gathi?
From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Fri Aug 8 05:39:16 EDT 1997

Which are eternal songs?
To me, MSV songs are good. There is nice melody
and lyrics add to the beauty. But after i hear
2-3 times, there is nothing new. Whereas songs
like "poonkathave", "senthaazham poovil", "aagaaya gangai", "chinnakannan azhaikkiraan" (SJ version),
"konji konji alaigal oda" make me listen to
them more and more. I really relish the
beatiful interludes and preludes in all these
songs.
Note: this doesn't imply IR songs are more eternal than MSV's. I'm only saying that "eternal" is
a subjective opinion.

IMHO:
MSV songs -> best if you are more interested in
lyrical part(includes song tune, words).
ARR -> Rhythm oriented songs. (I consider him
stronger in this area compared to IR and
others.)
IR -> best for orchestration.
He may be inspired by many, but what
matters is the end product. he gives
the best mix of all musical aspects.

Anyone like to fill in something for Deva?
From: kumar (@ 148.5.30.79) on: Fri Aug 8 07:30:26 EDT 1997

Deva perumai> Music directorgal
thiruduvadhu undu, Aanal 5 thambigalodu
serndu kollai adikkum ore MD.
BRaja, IR, Bagyaraj evargalai parthu
grammathil irundu palar cinimavukku
vandargal. Adu pool Devai parthu
verum cut'n paste techai nambi
vanda MDs indru > 10.
From: Padmanabhan Ganesan (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Aug 8 11:06:38 EDT 1997

Kannadhasan had a great share in MSV's success. MSV's songs will probably live longer due to the quality of Kannadhasan's lyrics. IR's success is solely his own.

That he has accomplished all there is to accomplish in TFM is an understatement. The problem with IR is his aspirations lay beyond TFM. I think his true desire was to establish himself beyond TFM. He wished to be regarded as a great composer - not just a great film music composer. Proof - his non-filmy albums - HTNI, NTW, his carnatic compositions played by U.Srinivas, his concerts in the guardian-of-carnatic-music The Music Academy, India 24Hours, his symphony. I think he has succeeded in that.

IR in my opinion has outgrown TFM. He no longer needs TFM to express himself. As he himself suggested in the recent AV interview he is no longer inspired by composing tunes for insipid movies and stupid situations. TFM is constraining IR. As an ardent IR fan, I feel IR should quit films and concentrate on non-filmy avenues.
From: easwaran hariharan (@ amex.proxy.lucent.com) on: Fri Aug 8 13:44:34 EDT 1997

I feel, IR should be the best talented, knowledgable person, ever to grace indian film cinema, if we go by the opinions of other greats in this field. There is no doubt that MSV is one of the greatest and talented MD, but he pales in comparision with IR. There are lot of IR songs, which you will get different feeling, everytime you listen, for example songs in nenjathi killathe, kadhal oviyyam. Just a melodious tune is itself not enough to sustain intrest in a song for a long time, and in this area MSV is sadly not adequate. Most of the songs he failed in
interlude music, or not shown enough intrest. Even
v kumar for a short time has given best melodious music with better orchestration.

e.hari
From: Gopal Prasad (@ host-207-53-6-51.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Fri Aug 8 14:08:58 EDT 1997

Bones,

Charisma, etc., are my feelings. Forget that and I dont think you have to mention them once again!!
In all respects, Ilay outweighs any other MD in all avenues! Melody, Orchestration, Rhythm, innovation, etc., MSV is no equal to RAAJA, whatever Ilay may say. That MSV is his Demi-God etc., MSV gave good, very good songs. Thanks to the time frame in which he worked!! There were good lyricists, good stories, etc., Moreover, film making was in its budding stage!! When Ilay entered, stories were gone and dead, technology had taken its toll! You started talking of camera, editing, sound, etc., People were talking about everything else besides music!!! Who prevented MSV from going in for innovations of the kind the melody king Raaja made?! Thats where MSV had limitations!! Thats the line of separation between a great music director (MSV) and a genius composer (ILAY)and it could be drawn easily!! Raaja not only stood to the pressure, but also was different enough in his tunes, orchestration, etc.,

Reg. one movie in a day, fast track, high speed working, etc., With growing changes, even that was a prerequisite!! Dont tell me that did not matter!! I don think MSV or any other MD could have stood the pressure that Ilay staved off nonchalantly!!! Today, ARR is intelligent enough to avoid more movies, becos, if he tries to give music at the rate Ilay gave, we must be listening to some music recycling machine at its best or another Deva at its worst!!!
Take the no. of tamil movies the 70s and 80s saw!!
This guy gave quality music besides the hellacious numbers he worked!! I mean this! Anyone else would have either quit or must have given us mean tunes and mundane songs had he been in Ilay's place during the 70s and 80s. He was on a kill!!!
In MSV's kaalakattam, the movie-makers, the audience, and above all MSV and the like, loved making/contributing to the filmdom!! It was more heart than head!! MSV had nothing to surpass!! He worked at peace with nobody at his back!! His lyricists were great!! He was the best, TFM had seen by then!!
In Ilays time, he had to work with speed, becos everyone wanted to make hay while the sun shone!! Ilay transformed the status of an MD to a marketable commodity. MSV was making great songs and fortunately he was not turned into a money-minting machine as Ilay was forced into!! If MSV had been forced to projects on a commercial spree, the best, we would have seen a DEVA, way ahead!!
You know that more than the hero/heroine, Ilays photos would occupy the roadside banners!! Have you seen anything like that before?? If someone proved that music alone, I repeat, MUSIC alone could RUN the movie to box-office, it was ILAYARAAJA !!! Do you think, with the kind of hackneyed stories those movies of 70s and 80s would have run without Raaja's music?? No way!!!
As we have seen in this forum, we are influenced by the music; the time and state of influence matters a lot!! You wouldnt believe if I say that I used to listen to only MSV, MS-VR songs day in and out till 1982. I just couldnt accept Ilay at all!! Because, the lyrics where just incomparable!! MSVs lyrics were too good!! I wasnt prepared for the "Orambo" stuff!! But, there was no way I could avoid the transformation from MSV to Ilay!! For, Ilay not only deserved yet another fan like me, but, was, neplusultra!!! Now the transformation to ARR is no way possible for me because, we are much more critical, we know what differences, innovations, ARRs music has made!! SWEET NOTHING!!!! ARR had to do something to break the monopoly, and the only way he could do was by seeking refuge in the western pattern of things !!(Music, I mean) Rest is history! We now have a "western tamil film music" kind of stuff!! Thanks to the tamil audience that has not had much exposure to western music!! Thanks to technology that makes you feel the beat!!

I 'll wait till yet another musical genius that is capable of replacing the king Raaja, emanates from the cauldron called TIME !!!

Till then, ILAYARAAJA was and is the best musical composer, TFM, INDIA has ever produced. Its unfortunate that this dimunitive genius has not been recognised properly by the rest of the country, world.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Aug 8 14:59:02 EDT 1997

When was the first time IR's photo appeard on the posters ?

The earliest I remember was Udhaya Geetham (IR's 300th film) when there was a banner for the film over Kodambakkam flyover in Madras. There was nobody else in the banner - just IR.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Aug 11 04:14:25 EDT 1997

Yov Gopal:

Neenga ellOrum azhagaa technical-aa pEsa nallaa kaththu
vachchirukkeengayyaa! semai veLaasu veLaasureengaLE. Appudi pEsittaa udanE naanga
mayangiduvomuNNu ninaichchutteengaLa?
Saar, adhudhaan illai. Melody-Orchestration-Rhythm-
innovation-classical ragas interpretation-within a day adhai pOttar idhai pOttar-musical notes'ai
paperilE ezhudhi koduththaar-symphony pOttar
appadi ippadinnu aLandhuttu pOreengaLE thavira
oru fundamental point-ai maRandhutteenga. Note
that we are talking about Film music. Films are
supposed to cater to a rasigan like me, one who
knows nothing about music technicalities. Indha
rasigargaLukku enna vENdumendraal: nice haunting
music, nenjai suNdi izhukkum isai. Idhai yaar nallaa
pOttaarO avardhaan Best MD. VadhyaarE, indha maadhiri
thuLLal migundha isai pOduradhilE MSV-kku iNai
illai saar! KarNan padththil MSV-TKR pOtta paadalgaLil neenga
sollum carnatic ragas ellaam thuLLUmunga; andha
maadhiri tunes pOduradhilE IR kitta kooda varalai!
Shanthi Nilayam paadalgaL kEttirukkeengaLaa?
Padaththil Nagesh paadum "Boomiyil iruppadhum
vaanaththil paRappadhum" paattil varum "dagadaa
dagadaa dagadaa dagadaa music + TMS sollum
chachu chaachoo" varum pOdhu namakkE vaanaththil
parakkura feeling varumayyaa!
IR is good, but only second in giving such heart
rendering music. Paalum Pazhamum padaththil
varum "Naan pEsa ninaippadhellaam"--idhellaam
mudiyumaa IR-inaal? Ennayyaa solreenga?
Shivaji-K'dhasan combination-ukkaaga MSV-yum
senjirukkaar (engE nimmadhi of P'Paravai)
IR-um senjirukkaar (pEsaadhE, vaayuLLa oomai
nee of Dheepam): compare paNNa mudiyumaa? Oh, No!
Ippavum neenga Madurai district-il
irukkum theatres pOneengannaa, oru Theatre-il
padangaL OdalEnnaa enna paNNuvaanga theriyumaa,
"pOdu oru arumaiyaana paadalgaL niraindha pazhaya
padaththai: like Paalum Pazhamum or Paasa Malar or P.Paravai
or Aalaya Mani or Enga Veettu Pillai or Kalangarai
Vilakkam or U Su Vaaliban or Karnan. UdanE koottam
piykkum. Neenga pOi Kalangarai ViLakkam Madurai
Theatre ondril paaththirukkeengaLaa? PaakalEnnaa
pOi nichchayam paarunga; adhil "enna uRavO enna
pirivO" MGR paadurappa enna aagudhunnu;
Aahaa, evvaLavu uNarchchiyirukkum? ungaLaiyum
ennaiyum maadhiri decent-aa irukkum aasaamigaLE angE
pullarichchu pOi rasichchuttu iruppaanga; andha
paattu padaththil varrappO ungaLukkE ezhundhu
"thOththaarudaa IR MSV-kittE" endru sollaNum pOl
thONum. Idhudhaanayyaa makkaLin theerppu; makkaL
theerpE mahEsan theerppum. Indha maadhiri AnnakkiLi padaththai yaaraachchum rerun pOduraangaLaa: OOHOOM! Ennadhu, MSV-TKR paadalgaLai
1-2-3 thadavai kEttaal bore adichuduthaa? Ennanga
solreenga? Something is totally wrong!
From: unmai-viLambi (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Mon Aug 11 08:28:43 EDT 1997

I think we are just talking about our personal
interest and likeness more than giving facts
(esp. easwaran hariharan).
lyrics helped MSV:
lyrics added more stuff - but the fact is that
if you try to sing any OLD song, after couple of
lines you won't remeber the words BUT definitely
you can hum the tune - the tune and music manasil
pathinjirukku more than varigaL.
Similarly for IR good stero recording helped enhancing
his original stuff (I know IR is the one who
introduced).

MSV used very simple things available in a very
innovative way like:
Different Instruements:
For interlude music, MSV was the one who introduced
and effectively used instruments like accordin, sax,
trumpet, piano. (The way he has intermixed piano
and humming in "pAtrondru kEtEn" from Pasamalar
is hight of innovation).

CLAPS - there are number of songs we can list where in
group songs hand clapping is differently and
nicely used.

VISIL - I think MSV is the ONLY MD who has used
visiling to its best.

BEATS - definitely in many songs MSV has used
different innovative beats..
- oru pennaip pArthu
- anbulla mAn viziyE
- vELAlE vizigaL
- pattathu rAni

Chorus - can list sooo many songs where chorus is
innovatively (I need a synonym) used

ECHO - There was absolutely NO echo making
system available then. For Anbe Vaa song
"Puthiya vAnam..Puthiya Boomi", for the
echo effect, TMS used to sing "Puthiya Vanam"
closer to mike and for the next "Puthiya Boomi"
he moves away from the mike and sings.

Poster: Making BIG Banners and attractive posters
was the 80's way - changes in advertisement.
In 60's there was NO banners even for Sivaji/MGR.
BUT all posters carried "MSV-TKR" name prominantly.
esp. in NON MGR/Sivaji movies, there used to be
only MSV-TKR and Director names in the poster.
Another way of showing prominence is in the
title - MSV/TKR name always appeared just
before the Director. Later in 80's it
chnaged - showing IR name in a prominent place.
So poster/banner deal is just advertisement gimmick.

Number of movies:
IR would have scored for more movies - BUT if you
start counting the number of HIT songs per year
I think MSV tops during his era;
It is like 25 good songs out of 30 by MSV verses
20 good songs out of 50 by IR. (This is NOT a
exact figure - so let us NOT get into that)

One can't simply say that MSV was not innovative
(apdi illAti 35 varushamA pAttai yArum kEtka
mAttAnga... "3 thadavai kEtapin nothing new
in that song" enbathu kathai).
From: kumar (@ 148.5.30.79) on: Mon Aug 11 09:46:09 EDT 1997

to keerthi:

"nan pesa ninaipadellam" madiri
IR podamudiyada ..
"kanna kalai mane .." eppadiyam.
MSV . MSV's songs are simple
and enjoyed my every rasigan right,
But IR made great technical things
enjoyable by ordinary rasigan
isn't it, from classical western, carnatic
to flok. I will start a seperate thread for
ratio of IR good songs, later.
From: Gopi SAnthanam (@ neesgate.neesnet.com) on: Mon Aug 11 10:48:05 EDT 1997

LEts us step aside from the fact that IR does notes , symphony, non-film
albums that has elevated him to World recognition. But let us forget
these sui generis achievements ,adulations ,encomiums ,commendations showered by Western musicians ,let us
perambulate in somnambulism that IR did not do all this; because only then
you atleast attempt into this atrabilous act of comparing MSV and IR.

LEt us delve into the specious argument that MSV' songs ,purportedly,
permeate more melody.I don't think one can even think about
comparing IR and MSV on the same pedestal .

IR's not heart-rendering ???.
What about
'oru naal ..unnodu oru naal'
'naaan pesa vandhaen'
'pon maalai pozhudhu'
'devadhai oru devadhai'
'engengo sellum un ennangal'
'andhi mazhai'
indha pattu kitta MSV ethana jenmam eduthaalum varamudiyadhu.
'poove semboovae'
'agaya vennilavae'
'thalaiyai kuniyum'
'sendhaazham poovil'
'unnai naan parkkayil'
'kannan oru kai kuzhandai'
'en kanmani un kaadhali'

What about songs that would imbue romance and sensuality ???
To name a few..
'raathiriyil'
'adukku malliha'
'nee poveduthu vekkanum'
'varudhu varudhu ilangattru'
'vaigaasi masathula pandhal'
'ehandha velai'
'kaathu ooodha kaathu'
'ethi vecha vilakkinilae'
'maaasi maasam'
'panni vizhum iravu'
'vaasalilae poosanipoo'
'raaasave unnai nambi.. indha rosappu'-a tip of the iceberg ..
'abbanee' -Which Anand-Milind copied into the 'Dhaku dhaku ' in Beta.

The list is interminable .

Why do you think 'karagattakkaran' ran for a year at Madurai thangam
theatre ???. That was the zenith in rendering folk-lore .If that is
not enough vindication .....??

There are fusillade of movies that ran for IR's musical score alone.

Compared to these Shanti nilaym ,paasa malar and all these songs
are molehills.

MSV kitta varamudiyaadhu....??
Guys,this is the last straw that could even instigate MSV to throw
a tantrum.. Give TFM a break ...IR has proved his mettle and he is
the only director to earn applause even when his name appears in the
auditorium.

While MSV's songs led to the music ,
IR's music led to the songs . IR's mastery was
just not over tunes alone .He knows to present
a song with much more ostentation and at the
same time without LOOSING ITS IDENTITY.
IR is Ostentation with perfection .
IR's parapharnelia is complete.MSV is pathetic in the rendition
of Western tunes . HE did not outgrow TFM at any phase while Raaja
had his tentacles spread all over.

Rajaram is right .MSV had better lyrics .
MSV for a while languished with Ramamurthy while IR
brandished his creativity alone . Agreed that MSV then
performed alone but in his heydays(or early days) he had
ramamurthy for succor.

Churning out music in a short period of time is a refulgent
quality of a musician . IR is a master .
If a musician takes 6 months or a long
time to perform ,it reflects inability . It reflects
slow creativity .

This appeared in The Hindu on IR's GURU.
--------
what was the reaction of the musicians when they
saw the recording studio and the way you work?

They were happy and were in tears when they had
to leave for home.
They praised me for the speed with which I work.
-----------
If MSV had these foreign musicians ,maybe, they would have needed a
domicile setup for a long period .

MSV's songs resemble an assortment of anachronistic trite ,
portraying paltry flashes of sepulchral cries enough for
you guys to call it music.

Remember , we HAVE to forget IR's non-film achievements to enter into
an argument of comparison. While at it , why not let us forget IR at TFM
and say MSV is the best . Will that suffice. That is the only avenue
open to concede that MSV is the best.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Mon Aug 11 17:34:38 EDT 1997

My responses to Mr.SathyaKeerthi's reply:

SK, neengaL enna sonneergaL?
> Films are supposed to cater to a rasigan like me, one who :
>knows nothing about music technicalities:

Ennoda badhil:
Do you think that the muppaththu mukkodi makkal in TN know about TN's technalities and fallen for IR ? "Manguyile poonguyile" bus, road, lorry, veedu, kalyana mandapam endru TN pooraga oodugiradhe? Adhu enna technicalaga analyse seydhu parthu piragu oliparappugiraargaLa?

>Indha rasigargaLukku enna vENdumendraal nice haunting music, nenjai suNdi izhukkum isai. Idhai yaar :>nallaa pOttaarO avardhaan Best MD

Ennoda badhil:
IR is famous for haunting music and nenjai suNdi izhukkum isai endru ungalakku theriyadha?
Have you listened to the following nenjai suNi izhukkum songs?
1.poongathave thazh theravai - nizhalgal
2.nenjukuLLe innarunu sonna puriyuma- ponnumani
3.nyaan nyaan aadanum - poondhalir
4.en vaniley orE veNNilaa - Johnny
5.vizhiyile malarndhadhu mudiviley kalandhadhu - Bhuvana oru ?
6. Kanne kalaimane kanni mayilena - moondram pirai
7. Poo malaiye thoL serava - Pagal Nilavu
And the list grows...
Have you listened to the following haunting music?
1.Thondu thottu indru varai ezhai ennum janmathukku (a very forceful song) - avatharam
2. Idhu thai pirandha dhesam nam thandhai aandam dhesam(a very patriotic song) - siraichaalai
3. Anbe vaa arugiLey en vaasal vazhiyiley (a real haunting song) - kiLippechchu ketkava
4. pani vizhum malarvanam un paarvai oru varam(love expressed in this song is simply beautiful) - Nenaivellam nithya

> KarNan padththil MSV-TKR pOtta paadalgaLil neenga sollum carnatic ragas ellaam thuLLUmunga: >andha maadhiri tunes pOduradhilE IR kitta kooda varalai! :

Ennoda badhil:
What a joke? When IR is composing songs which are totally based on carnatic raagas how can every say that ? Have you gone through Ramki's "Classical Ilayaraaja's" series? If you have read that and also given these comments I think there is something really wrong in your argument. Look at the following songs
1.Idhazil kadhai ezhudhum neramidhu
2.Endhan nenjil neengadha thendral needhana - Kalaignan
3.Mouna raagam mana veenai meetugindra malaiyil - Kolangal
4.All songs in Mogha muzh which are totally classical - Sollayo vai thirandhu is an excellent song
5.thoongadha vizhigaL rendu - Agni natchathiram(a very different song based on the raaga "Amruthavarshini" that brings rain to the earth :-) )

> VadhyaarE, indha maadhiri thuLLal migundha isai pOduradhilE MSV-kku iNai illai saar:
> Shanthi Nilayam paadalgaL kEttirukkeengaLaa? :>Padaththil Nagesh paadum "Boomiyil iruppadhum
> vaanaththil paRappadhum" paattil varum "dagadaa dagadaa dagadaa dagadaa music + TMS sollum
> chachu chaachoo" varum pOdhu namakkE vaanaththil parakkura feeling varumayyaa!

Ennoda badhil:
SK avargaLe, IRin thuLLaL music venuma? Idho keLungaL:
1)Rumbum bum arambum rum rum perinbam(indha pattai kettaL ungal kaal thaanaga tap seiyum)
2)Oh. Butterfly.. En viriththai siragai..(nammai butterfly pol parakka vaiththpadaL idhu)
3)chitti kuruvi vetka paduthu pettai kuruvi kaththu tharudhu(chitti kuruvi siragai adiththu koLLuvadhu pol irikkum indha pattu)

> IR is good, but only second in giving such heart rendering music. Paalum Pazhamum padaththil
> varum "Naan pEsa ninaippadhellaam"--idhellaam mudiyumaa IR-inaal? Ennayyaa solreenga?

Ennoda badhil:
IR is gooda? He is THE BEST. He has give umpteen number of soul-stirrers. Adhai therunjum ippadi sollalama SK? Here we go:
1)Ennulle ennulle pala minnal ezhum neram - Look at TFM discussion forum as to how many people have appreciated and fallen for this song!
2)NilaavE vaa selladhE vaa - Mouna Raagam - Ippavum indha pattai kettal manasil oru laptap adhigamagum!
3)Sindhu nadhi semmeeney pongu kadal senthene - Ponnumani - A pathos which will make you cry
4)Naan paadum mouna raagam ketkavillaiya - Idhaya kovil - Ippavum radiovil podadha naaL illai
5)Vizhiyil vizhundhu idhayam nulaindhu uyiril kalandha urave - Alaigal Oyvadhillai - Ayyo ippadi koodava kadhalai patri sollamudiyum!
6)Thene thenpandi meene isaithene - Udhaya geetham
7)Thenpandi cheemaiyile therodum veedhiyile man pola vandhavane - Nayagan(Indha pattai kettal ennai arimayal azhugai varum )
etc, etc, etc..

>Ippavum neenga Madurai district-il irukkum theatres pOneengannaa, oru Theatre-il
> padangaL OdalEnnaa enna paNNuvaanga theriyumaa, "pOdu oru arumaiyaana paadalgaL niraindha> >pazhaya padaththai: like Paalum Pazhamum or Paasa Malar or P.Paravai or Aalaya Mani or Enga Veettu > Pillai or Kalangarai Vilakkam or U Su Vaaliban or Karnan. UdanE koottam piykkum.

Ennoda badhil:
Maduraiyai vidunga! "Karakattakkaran" and "Nattupura pattu" pondra padangal TN muzhukka pattukkagave odiyadhu enbadhu ellorukkum therindha veshayam. Moreover pazhaiya padangaL Oduvadharkku pattukkalai thavira vEru karanamgaL irukkindrana, like a strong story, good actors like Shivaji, MGR(style mannar) and Shivaji's acting, Kannadasan's lyrics in the songs etc. etc. add to the quality of the film. It is not just that people are seeing old movies for songs alone. People can hear good songs even in recent movies. But avargalukku nalla kadhai parkka mudiyavilla enbadhal dhaan pazhai padangaLai parkirargaL. As simple as that!

> Neenga pOi Kalangarai ViLakkam Madurai Theatre ondril paaththirukkeengaLaa? PaakalEnnaa
> pOi nichchayam paarunga; adhil "enna uRavO enna pirivO" MGR paadurappa enna aagudhunnu;
> Aahaa, evvaLavu uNarchchiyirukkum? ungaLaiyum ennaiyum maadhiri decent-aa irukkum
> saamigaLE angE pullarichchu pOi rasichchuttu iruppaanga; andha paattu padaththil varrappO
> ungaLukkE ezhundhu "thOththaarudaa IR MSV-kittE" endru sollaNum pOl thONum.

Ennoda badhil:
MGR became popular of his charisma and style . Ippozhudhum janangaL MGR padam parpadhu avarudai mugaththirkum styleukkum dhaan. What do you say about Rajini then? Ippo Tamizhagaththin Demi-Godaga consider seyyappadum Rajini avargal ippadi popular anadhukku avar Style matrum actingai thavira IR's songs koodaththaan. Adharkaga naan Rajni fansidam IR songs made Rajni popular endru sonnal udhaippargaL. AdhanaaL MGR padangaL odiyadhu MSVaL endru solladheergaL. Yaravadhu MGR visiriyin kadhil vizhundhaaL ungalai moththu mothendru moththividuvaargaL.
From: Gopal (@ host-207-53-3-118.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Mon Aug 11 18:04:55 EDT 1997

Sathya Keerthi sir

K V M M O endru pidivaadham piddippadhu sariyalla!! MSV oru nalla MD!!One or two instancesla MSV IRai replace seyyalam -- like nalla lyrics, nalla pronunciation (I mean singers!) But overall rating paarthaal Raaja Raajaadhan!!
MGR/Sivaji kaalakattathil avvalavu nalla paadalgalai koduthaalum yEn MSVkku oru star status kidaikkavillai? Because, he just gave good songs like yet another department in the movie ( like acting, lyrics, story, dialog etc) Nadippu, matrum Charisma enru paarthaal anru kalakkiya Sivaji, matrum MGR inrum kalakkugiraargal!! There is no gainsaying the fact that Ulagam Sutrum Valiban is a coffer-topper even today!! I love to see movies like Aalayamani, Paasamalar, Paalumpazhamum, 60s MGR movies, because, these movies had a mixture of treats like songs, acting, charisma, story-line etc., And songs always ran parallel.
IR maadhiri MSVkitte kadhaye illamey mottaya paattu pottu thara sonna MSV nichayama kashtappaduvar. Kaaranam, avaroda timela avarukku supportive aaga pala factors irundhadhu, one great factor is called Kannadhasan, another being Sivaji!!
My corollary is MSV kooda avaroda peakla oneupmanshipku try panniyirukka maattaar! Because, as regards creativity, he had limitations!!

ps::K V M M O means Upside fall also Mush Sand no Stick!!!
From: easwaran hariharan (@ amex.proxy.lucent.com) on: Mon Aug 11 18:37:06 EDT 1997

unmai-viLambi avargale,
60's neengal sonna music innovationsku karanam MSV mattum alla, TKRm karanam. Neegal MSV songs, TKR udan part anna piragu
keetu parthal nanragave theriym. If you don't take this is as my personal opinion, I feel MSV -TKR combination, MSV did the tunes and TKR did the music. So all your glorifications about MSV, should be shared with TKR.
There are lot of their songs, where I like for the innovations, but they are very few. I think, in 60's KVM was as good as MSV and sometimes better. May be it is better, If someone starts MSV
vs KVM thread. I think that is a fair fight.
I heard SPB saying MSV as the best music director, he worked under, I don't know why I am saying this here, but is it true?.

e.hari
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Aug 11 22:00:07 EDT 1997

Guys and Gals:

I appreciate the amazing energy with which all of you
are responding. In the process there is a lot of
repetition of old ideas: Orchestration, Ostentation,
Innovation, MSV is good only because of lyrics,
TMS is all noise etc. etc. My main point was that
when we evaluate we should be simple and clear
about our criterion: whether the music captured
your heart or not; of course, you may bring in
a whole list of other criteria and complicate the matter, but I will stick to my criterion since
that's what I think matters to the common man who
enjoys TFM. Since "heart-rendering" is very subjective
we have a fundamental problem even with this single
criterion. Oruththar "Naan pEsa ninaippadhellaam"
paattai "KaNNE kalaimaanE" paattukku oppidaraar;
I simply disagree. Obviously we seem to have
different tastes. "KarNan" padaththil pOttadhu pOla
carnatic ragangaLai suNdi izhukkum tunes-aaga
yaarum pOdalai endru en manadhu solgiradhu;
innOruththar illai engiraar. (BTW did I ever say
IR cannot make nice tunes based on carnatic ragas?) I think "thookkam un kaNgaLai thazhuvattumE" is SJ's best song of all times;
but most of you will not agree. The part of TFM
history at which music imprints deeply into
your heart (+ of course, your musical tastes)
obviously decides which/whose music
you love the most. IppO Kanchana, Thenraja,
Bones Sathya, IasiPiriyan, matrum ennai
kEtteengannaa, naanga enna solvOmendru ellorukkum
theriyum; it's not as if (patti mandraththil nadappadhu
pOl) we stick to our point for the sake of it
and refuse to move away from it (enna, engaLukku idhai
thavira vEra vElai illayaa enna); we are simply
expressing what our heart feels. Naan IR-songs
aarambaththilirundhu follow paNNittudhaan irukkEn;
rasichittum irukkEn; adhu pOl ARR-isaiaiyum sila
Dheva paadalgaLaiyum rasikkaththaan seygiren.
Aanaal, enakku MSV-TKR paadalgaL meedhu aLavillaa
kaadhalayyaa; idhu mooLai sambandhappattadhu
endraal neenga ennai convince paNNi maatralaam;
aanaal idhu nenjaththinaal Erpatta baadhippu allavaa?
IdhE pOl neengaL ellOrum IR paadalgaL & Isai
mEl bakthi koNdavargaL endru enakku nallaa
puriyudhu. Adhanaal indha querru-kku mudivE irukkaadhayyaa,
irukkaathu! Idhu ippadi irukkum pOdhu,
oruththar innOru querry-il
10-15 evaluation criteria pOttu ellaar
maNdaiyaiyum piLakka
aarambiththirukkiraar. Enna aagap pOgiradhO?
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Tue Aug 12 00:22:44 EDT 1997

Excellent arguments and counters!! But one thing I notice is, the choice depends on the age of the 'poster' (Isn't that how you call the person who 'posts'?). From the brief resumes which people gave in another query, it not so difficult to find out that people born in 60s argue for MSV and people born in 70s argue for IR, which is understandable. This clearly shows that 'makkaL thIrpu' is different for different decades.

As far as 'makkaL thIrpu' is concerned, IR and MSV get equal points. But analysing them more critically will clarify one thing.

Many of the factors considered are subjective - haunting, charisma etc. Bones rightly pointed that out. But there are certain facts like productivity, good lyric writers, good situations. Did you note that IR had a higher productivity, worked with writers of lesser calibre and tuned songs for hopeless situations?

I am forced to bring in cricket for comparison once again. Apologies to Junta not interested in cricket (Can there be any?). Though both scored equal number of runs, IR scored it on a difficult situation and at a faster pace.

You may still argue that I, a 71 born, will argue for IR. But let us analyse without our personal preferences.

PS - I was watching Sun TV yesterday morning. Sun Music is shown for around 2 hours in the morning. Most of them IR songs. But when 'unnai naan sandhiththEn' was shown, I couldn't resist increasing the volume. I realised that I cannot say whole heartedly that IR is a greater MD than MSV.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Tue Aug 12 00:28:01 EDT 1997

Sorry for the half boiled information. The song I mentioned was 'unnai naan sandhiththEn' from 'aayiraththil oruvan'. Please do not confuse with songs from the movie 'unnai naan sandhiththEn'.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Tue Aug 12 12:25:08 EDT 1997

To SK:
First of all, we cannot compare MSK with IR because they were not contemporary. The topic started "Best MD FOREVER goes to.." is also an impractical question. So, I do not think we can find a logical answer or a common answer to this question because of varied tastes and different ages of the discussants. I had to counter your argument because you said that IR is GOOD in giving heart-rendering tunes and sundi-izhukkum isai and not THE BEST which I disagree. I like MSV's songs very much and still enjoy them. But, my heart and soul always goes for IR's songs when it comes to tamil film music.
Anyway, cheers to all Guys who made this topic lively and interesting. It was real fun!
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Tue Aug 12 13:42:53 EDT 1997

My father born in 1940 thinks G.Ramanathan was the greatest composer. His favourite singer of all time is a tie between P.U.Chinnappa and M.M.Dhandapaani Desikar.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-to01.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Aug 12 15:04:39 EDT 1997

PG:
What does your Dad think of MKT?

As far as this thread is concerned, Relativity Rules!!!!

I'm glad I've had a chance to go thru TKR-MSV/IR/ARR and watch them bloom; my CD/cassette collection keeps growing as I add and selectively appreciat the new guys but my heart is with TKR-MSV/MSV as Sathya Keerthi put it so well. Oops, did I leave out Deva?
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Tue Aug 12 16:29:06 EDT 1997

My father is a fan of MKT but PUC/MMDD is his favourite. I used to hate PUC/MKT/MMDD but now I can appreciate their music. Thanks to my father I am a big fan of PUC/MKT/Vasantha Kokilam etc. Listen to PUC's Namakkini bayamethu - SPB/TMS will have to eat crow. - Sakalakala vallavan - PUC.

Incidentally MMDD was the precursor of KJY and UK-in the sense he was famous in both films and on stage.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ti42.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Aug 12 17:21:46 EDT 1997

I used to hate that generation's music when I was a kid too, but now enjoy it. (My grandfather's home still has the heavy graphite HMV gramaphone records of MKT/MMDD/DKP/MSS movie songs.)
I still am trying to find a person who can explain the following lines from one of MKT's songs: "kudila kunthalam kuvalaya thaLa neelam".
From: gopal (@ host-207-53-3-96.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Tue Aug 12 18:46:47 EDT 1997

Dont you think its our responsibility to revisit the times and songs of these folks who have done so much for tfm?? Why shouldnt we start a new thread on this subject??
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Tue Aug 12 22:07:03 EDT 1997

Yov Gopal:

Thanks for your statement that the querry that we
are addressing is very subjective. As Kanchana has
mentioned elsewhere, I am glad that we have agreed
to disagree. I agree that what I wrote 2 days ago
was quite exagerrated; but the reason I wrote like
that was the following: many of you were making
"absolute" statements on behalf of IR and I just
wanted to show that the statements made by the
MSV's side also had "energy" and "great feeling"
for his music; that's all. I think we now agree
that both IR and MSV have made great contributions,
and, the answer to "whose was the greatest" is
highly personal. During the early years of IR,
I mentally resisted IR and used to get into angry
discussions with IR fans; but soon "good sense"
came to me and ever since, I have been listening
to good music wherever it comes from; I have cared
little to find out who composed the music, who wrote
the lyrics or who sang the song. This, I feel,
has greatly helped me to appreciate and love
good music through the heart without all that
noise from the brain. This discussion has helped
to remind me about the ill-effects of "psychological
attachment" and "identification" with one particular
person's music. I thank Raj (who started this
topic) for this. BTW, who is this Jackal Raj
and what was his view?
From: mazai_penju_onjathuYOV (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Wed Aug 13 00:44:12 EDT 1997

I am glad that this thread is over and liked
all your finishing statements.

vAlga mellisai mannarum, isai njAniyum, thEnisaith
thendralum, isaip puyalum, isai kala rasigargaLum.

Now for the IR fans, I have what Vaali has written
about IR's SYMPHONY achievement from his book
"nAnum intha nootrandum" in MURASU tamil font.

"vEtti jibbAvudan boomiku vantha beethovan"

I have sent that article to Rajaram - in the
mean time if you need it - mail me.

------------------ SUBAM -----------------------
From: shankar (@ webgate4.mot.com) on: Tue Oct 21 09:10:54 EDT 1997

Mr Padmanabhan ganesan,
(sorry for inserting this in the hottest of topics)
Please tell me if 'india 24 hours has been released in india.As an ardent-to-the-power-n(n->ifinity)fan of IR,i would like to know if ti has been released/when is it going to be released?
Please mail me at
shankarr@bigfoot.com

By the way, My vote always goes to our maestro.Have u ever heard MSV scoring 2 different
interludes in the same song? Raja has!!
From: pg (@ igw3.merck.com) on: Fri Oct 24 13:52:47 EDT 1997

Shankar,
I have no idea if India 24 Hrs hs been released i India. I live in NJ, USA and I bought about 2 months back here. The CD is no longer available in the shop I bought it. I am going to India in 15 days and I shall be doing some serious IR-music shopping. Maybe I shall have more info then.
From: srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Tue Jun 9 12:36:41 EDT 1998

HI,
2 interludes

IN olden days the manufacutuing cost for EP OR LP reocord was more. So to cut short the cost all the records featrured only limited edition of the song. Music directors were forced to score one BGM .. Though MSV has many two bgms number -

RAJA has not scored songs more than 2 bgms..
MSV has done songs with more than 3 bgms.
The basic reason is people here have not heard more MSV....(people who discuss here)
My order of ranking is what Mr. Nithin did
MSV is first - he was the person who gave inspiration to Raja or anyone else for that matter. Raja had something to refer ---
But MSV did not have because MDS before him were more classical oriented.
Melisai - Light music was introduced by MSV-- that why he is still called the MelIsai Manner.

Srikanth

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