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Poetry vs Lyrics

Topic started by Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on Tue Feb 23 21:55:02 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Is Kannadasan a poet or a lyricist ? Indha Katru Veliyidai Kannamma - is this a poem because the author intended it to be poetry and not a lyric ? How different is it in quality from, say, Singarak Kanne Un Thenoorum Sevvayal ?

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Responses:

• From: Ramki (@ pm062-19.spindler.wmich.edu) on: Tue Feb 23 22:28:07 EST 1999
  
  Good question Bhoori. Kannadasan is both. He made lyrics out of poems. Poets do not have the restriction of tunes but lyricist have to confine their thoughts to the limits of tune and has to cut it short for the sake of time. They might have to edit some excellent words as it might not fit the thaalam. A poet loses control over his words when he becomes a lyricist.
  A poet has the freedom to write on any topic he wishes to and express his thoughts but as a lyricist he is forced to think like the characters appearing in the song sequence. He has to express the feelings of a male,female,child,widow,thata patti etc etc.Given all these restrictions it is difficult to be a 'poet' but you can always be a 'lyricist'. Lyrics are subtypes of poems :)
  
  
• From: RAJ (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 24 00:05:57 EST 1999
  
  But if a poet is free to write his thoughts in an unbridled fashion, whereas a lyricist has to tailor his thoughts to suit the situation, should we not think that it is the latter who has drawn the short straw? I mean, lyrics like kannadasan's which took pains to suit the situation unlike the aatha-paartha type. I feel that the lyricist(again I mean a sincere lyricist like Kannnadasan) , given to such restrictions operates under stricter constraints ..hence, it is the more difficult job?
  
  As you said lyrics(subset of ) poems. And my maths tells me it is always difficult to find a specimen in the subset than the superset!
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-te063.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Feb 24 00:12:46 EST 1999
  
  A poet degenerates to a lyricist while succumbing to the pressure given by the MD or Movie Director. IMO, kannadasan never confined himself (or was never forced) to the tune, thanks to the creative skills of MSV, KVM others who could compose for pre-written lyrics. Kannadasan was mostly thematic like that of a genuine poet whose verses are based on a broad spectrum of thoughts. Kannadasan's vivid imaginary skills allowed him to view every situation (movie) as a theme and he simply expanded the horizon by bringing in the (movie)situation. His thought process was natural and was always influenced by his own instincts. His verses had some impulsive charasteristics that can imbibe a snapshot of the movie situation in your mind. This quality is something which , IMO, even renowned poets like Subramania Bharati did not have('uchchi meethu vAnidinthu', kavingar has written 100s of lyrics which are even better!), for bharathi it was freedom struggle that boosted his fame. IMO, Kannadasan is few notches above any poets of 20th century of his calibre and nobody has ever touched this pinnacle.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 24 01:36:02 EST 1999
  
  Ah! Rameshb , You got carried away. Kannadasan>Bharathiyar?
  I am sure you didnt mean it that way though your comparison and the subsequent summarial "..few notches..twentieth.." seems to suggest so.
  
  It is not Bharathiyar's fault that he existed in an era where Freedom struggle was the salient issue and everything else was secondary. Surely, you have read "Mangiyadhor nilavinilae", " Katru veliyidai kannamma" and numerous other bhakti songs of Bharathiyar.
  Well, Kavignar might have 100's of lyrics celebrating veeram...but I am sure any Tamizhan worth his salt will come up with "Uchi meedhu vaan idindhu" if a song of that genre has to be quoted. The pep, the strength of conviction in that song is simply incomparable. i dont think anyone has equalled that poem in that genre.
  
  Have you read:
  "Aggini kunjondru kandaen, athanai
  Aangor kaatilae pondhidai vaithaen..
  Vendhu thaninthathu kaadu-Thanal
  Neruppinil kunjaendrum mooppendrum undo?"
  
  Quote one song of Kannadasan which surpasses the above for sheer beauty of observation, imagination and expression. He hasnt used it as a simile. Simply an observation and what profound implications!
  
  I am sorry, I am a fan of KannaD myself but to place him above Bharathiyar is ignoring facts.
  Yes, KannaD ws kaviyarasu but Bharathiyaar wasa nd remains the only MAHAKAVI.
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Feb 24 02:04:55 EST 1999
  
  Raj, cool down:-))) bharathiyaarai defend pannap pOi avar kavidhaiyai maathitteengaLE!! it is "thazhal veerathil..." and not "thanal neruppinil".
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 24 02:11:57 EST 1999
  
  bb:
  (bb= Bharathiyar Bhaktan?:))
  
  Okay, so I got carried away:)
  
  Anyway, thanks for the correction. It sounds much better with the original lines:)
  
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Feb 24 02:25:42 EST 1999
  
  no, HCBF:-))))
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Wed Feb 24 09:14:07 EST 1999
  
  Kannadhasan was a great lyricist; a great song writer.
  
  He was not a great poet; he was not a great thinker - all his ideas were rehash of classical Tamil literature.
  
  KK > bharathi ???
  
  What is the world coming to ?
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-tm063.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Feb 24 09:37:39 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  nice example , but not penetrative though , IMO.(it sounds more vulgarithmic than algorithmic, ie conveying the underlying meaning!;-)))
  Kannadasan's lyrics are more inductive than the above example. In revolutionary themes, his approach never had a ray of ambiguity. His visions were more practical and he always maintained his algorithm for any given theme. Other poets' visions(like Subramania) were superficial and often not practical. Can you still imagine someone saying "thani oru manithanukku unavillai enil intha jagaththinai azhiththiduvOm"? Kannadasan's verses were highly practical and were not based on the ongoing virtual realities.
  
  You can still apply the first three lines of the following song to stimulate one's mettle.
  "
  Achcham enbathu mammaiyadA
  anjAmai thrivAdiar udamayadA
  aarilum sAvu noorilum sAvu
  thAyagam kAppathu kadamaiyada "
  
  More importantly, i can give you few lines which focusses on agony of human being and portrays his
  situation in an eloquent manner.
  
  "pAnjAli unnidathil geethai kEttAL
  antha pARkanavan unnidathil geethai kEttAn
  nAnirukkum nilayil unnai enna kEtpEn
  innum nanmai seithu thubam vAngum uLLam kEtpEn"
  
  Eventhough, the last line may seem impractical, but kavingar quickly adapted to the situation.
  
  Is there an equivalent to
  
  "thAnAdavillayammA sathaiyAduthu" in anyone else's poem in terms of befitting so well to the
  situation or theme?
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Wed Feb 24 10:43:46 EST 1999
  
  it should be ,
  "pAnjAli unnidathil sElai kEttaL" , sorry for the typo
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Feb 24 11:02:40 EST 1999
  
  rameshb: u can give credit to KD if his ideas were original.. alas, that is not the case. and regarding ur finding the "inner meaning" in agni kunju poem, it reflects on your capabilities of imagination, not on poor bharathiyaar. and your argument about bharathiyaar's ideas being impractical, few brahmins of his age would do the acts that he did.. he was a man of virtues, not just in words but in actions too..
  finally, KD vs bharathi is totally uncalled for in this thread. i hope you would start another thread for this purpose.
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Wed Feb 24 11:25:50 EST 1999
  
  I have confidence in my capabilities of comprehension of bharati's verses. By commenting on my imaginary skills you only have shown your colors by indulging in a personal attack while defending for your poet. If your have examples to prove Bharati's superiority in terms of versatility, practicality and a scope befitting any future life to come, show me your Ace in the hole . Regarding 'actions' and not 'words', i donot want to talk about any heroism here. If you think comparing kannadasan with other poet's is not 'called for' in this thread(veLLai kodi!), I appreciate your view and would stay away from doing so.
  
  
• From: Ranga (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Wed Feb 24 13:16:09 EST 1999
  
  The comparisons between Bharathi and Kannadasan are highly limited esp if we were argue who was a better lyricist and who was a great poet - because we have seen both sides of kannadasan, but we have known Bharathi more as poet than as a lyricist.
  
  Lets try and compare them as poets then. We'll use certain criteria to compare them - 1) impact of their poems, 2) diversity in thoughts, and 3) flow of language (I'd welcome more criteria from you guys)
  
  If we use "impact of their poems" as criteria, Bharathi scores higher. Using poem as a medium, what Bharathi achieved was spectacular. Our hearts skip beats even today when we sing "Endru thaniyum indha sundandira daagam" and "Paarukule nalla Naadu". Kannadasan's poems were good, but they had limited impact.
  
  Using diversity in thoughts as criteria, I find it difficult to compare them. But I feel Kannadasan gains a slight edge here - especially because of his role as a lyricist! Bharathi has touched upon a lot of social issues which is reflected in his poems, but where kannadasam scores is the human-element in his songs. He has composed more personal numbers (thanks to movies again!)
  
  Flow of language - Both of them are great in their own respects - but I'd persoanlly favor Kannadasan for the simplicity in his language, coupled with excellent command. "Vaa nila nila alla un vaalibam nila.."..
  
  More thoughts are welcome..
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Ramki (@ csg02.cs.wmich.edu) on: Wed Feb 24 13:44:08 EST 1999
  
  Bharathiar is an excellent poet no doubt in that. It is not even fair to compare Bharathiar with Kannadasan. But Bharathiar kavidhais are only for those who are well versed in tamizh. To be honest i have not understood many of his poems, due to my very little knowledge in tamil.
  Whereas kannadasan used simple tamizh to express his thoughts. any lay man can understand what he meant in his poems and lyrics.
  Lets take one Bharathiar kavidhai as an example(the wordings may not be rite)
  
  suttum vizhi chudar dhan kannamma
  surya chandiraro(what is suttum-enakku theriyadhu)
  kattu kariya vizhi kannamma
  kaana karumai kollom(enakku suthama indha lines puriyadhu)
  pattu karu neela pudavai
  padhitha nal vairam
  nattu nadu nisiyil
  therikkkum nakshathirangalai(indha oru line completa purinjudhu)
  
  
  When i can understand only one line it makes it difficult for me to appreiciate his works. Again this is not his fault. He has used the best tamizh but as a paamaran i can only understand the language i normally speak. This was the language kannadasan used in his poems and lyrics.
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Wed Feb 24 14:07:57 EST 1999
  
  Ramki:
  
  Suttum - pointing.
  
  Suttik kaattaradhunnu kelvippatthadhillaiya ?
  
  The second line is
  
  Vattak Kariya Vizhi Kannamma
  Vanak Karumai Kollo ?
  
  Ippa puriyumnu ninaikkaren.
  
  

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