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Why does Carnatic songs of IR sound so different from ARR ?

Topic started by cosmician (@ 194.170.1.67) on Mon Apr 23 01:24:33 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I'm not music literate and go more by feel and hearing...and this has always baffled me. Why does carnatic songs tuned by IR sound so different from those of ARR ? Could you please throw some light on this ?

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Responses:

• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Mon Apr 23 02:31:27 EDT 2001
  
  cosmician, i am also a music illiterate, still i try to answer u based on the inputs i got from this forum and my own prejudice :-)
  
  It goes into the root of music making method of both. IRs is older style tune is primary then rhythm is supportive. ARR's is almost-nearly the reverse or in other words ARR gives more importance to thaaLam in creating a song.
  
  Listen to the ubiquitous alai paayudhae kanna yenmanam mig(h)a alai paayudhae from yethhanai konam yethhanai paarvai for IR's version and alaipayudhae for ARR's version. ARR uses some thaaLam acomplishment of mrudhangam(this in my taste is an unnecessary ottu samaachaaram, but my personal opinions are apart).
  
  Some pundits in this forum have mentioned that, in Western Classical Music(WCM) human voice is also another instrument unlike in Indian Classical Music(ICM). IMHO in ARR's music tune is also one other part of his music making not a predominant or first part(this is nothing to belittle, its his way, thats all...u can't question why in WCM human voice is just another instrument, can you?).
  
  Whereas, in IR's music tune is comparitively a predominant part or first part. Raagas are the base for tune. Hence IR's way is the classical way of TFM tuning (people, ie oldies say even IR's is also not purely giving first importance to tune his is orchestration, to some extent i agree with it but IMHO his way of music making is still conventional/classical).
  
  Also, ARR, though fixes a raaga for his song has a tendency to touch all kind of stuff in that same raaga. It is very rare to see him sticking to a single format...he may start a song tuned based on some X raaga suddenly changes it a bit or more to sound like quwaali and twists it more to sound a bit like some other genre etc.
  
  That is why a song of ARR on a rarely used raaga like kadhana kuthookulam(please forgive me if i spelt it wrongly) doesn't stick to it...it starts in it uses anya swarams liberally and changes to other genre that is compatible with the selected/tuned rhythm of that song.
  
  as i claimed at the top, im musically illiterate so i may be factually wrong. whatever i have expressed is to the best of my knowledge and fully IMHO.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Mon Apr 23 02:39:02 EDT 2001
  
  may be pundits could throw more light on this...
  
  my explanation might be saying something like there is a torch in this room; i remember the house-owner saying that it is on the table on the north corner to a guy who has just entered a pinch-dark room for the first time where there is no power.
  
  :-)
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.168.237) on: Mon Apr 23 03:58:02 EDT 2001
  
  Thanks for the explanation Kupps :-)...maybe pundits can add more to what you've already deciphered...
  
  
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ 202.144.44.234) on: Mon Apr 23 04:57:47 EDT 2001
  
  The answer of "Why does Carnatic songs of IR sound so different from ARR ?" is the answer of the question given below.
  
  Why does Carnatic songs of MSV sound so different from IR?
  
  
• From: :-) (@ 64.104.128.15) on: Mon Apr 23 05:01:26 EDT 2001
  
  >>Why does Carnatic songs of MSV sound so different from IR?<<
  
  idha solradhukku, enakku answer theriyAdhunnE sollirukkalAm :-)
  
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ 202.144.44.234) on: Mon Apr 23 07:35:21 EDT 2001
  
  Enna Cheiya :-)
  Makkal Thirundthuvangkanu Pakirean. Nadaka Matengkuthey. :-(
  Avan Avanukuth Thonriyathai Isaikirarkal. Avangka Moolaikulla Poya Pakamudium. Pidikathavangka Thita oru idam venum. Avalavuthaan.
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.168.244) on: Mon Apr 23 07:47:58 EDT 2001
  
  Guys...guys...this is not meant to be a MSV-IR-ARR bash.......just to discuss the technical differences...so please put back your claws and fangs !
  
  
• From: S (@ 64.104.128.15) on: Mon Apr 23 09:27:18 EDT 2001
  
  cosmician,
  U can bear with those postings made in a lighter vein
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Mon Apr 23 10:49:55 EDT 2001
  
  Typo,
  
  Also, ARR, though fixes a raaga for his song has a tendency to touch all kind of stuff in that same raaga
  
  please read it as:
  
  Also, ARR, though fixes a raaga for his song has a tendency to touch all kind of stuff in that same rhythm
  
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Apr 23 11:26:32 EDT 2001
  
  Kupps,
  I dont think in ARRs songs voice is just another instrument. It is just that in the recording the rhythm arrangment is in the foreground than the vocals. but you are right about ARR starting out with a rhythm first. Even Subbudu mentioned that ARR does with thAlam as 'adippadai'. But I think thAlam is different from 'rhythm'. (Somebody musically strong please correct me, if I am wrong). 'thALam' is timing and 'emphasis'. 'thalam' should go with the lyrics/singing. rhythm is just pace.I have seen IR use rhythm mainly for songs which sound 'tribal'.But he uses 'thAlam' accompaniment for melody based songs. tabla/mridhangam are used for thAlam accompaniment and louder drums for rhythm. Also, he is likely to introduce rhythm with strings (violins) or other instruments than with drums. This goes well with the melody numbers which is his forte.
  
  BTW, one of the reasons, I think, IRs songs sound different from MSV's because IRs has a bass score (chords ??) most of the time. They are more westernised than MSVs because of this.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Mon Apr 23 11:46:05 EDT 2001
  
  'thalam' should go with the lyrics/singing.
  
  It is the other way, everthing should go with thalam. Thalam is the basis for music.
  just playing the drum or ghattam is not talam, it is just a mode to tell or convey the talam in a song, it can be done using without any instrument.
  
  Talam can be called as "clock speed" for a song.
  everything revoles around it.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Mon Apr 23 12:06:56 EDT 2001
  
  I am not here to dispute which is superior.
  
  
  Basic difference,
  Ir does songs based on his chords. Majority of songs were done in this format only.
  
  While msv does chords based on the song, he works on the melody and then worries about the chords, this is the traditional way, Carnatic music is melody oriented, thinking it polyphony before the melody makes a huge differnce in the score.
  
  Arr, lays the basic idea and lets the singer to explore little bit more, like if you see a western recordings (I have seen few) they first lay the parts (guitar, drum etc) and they come up with 10+ different melodies for the lyrics and mix and match them accordingly.
  
  This Might sound like the "IR way", but Ir does not mix and match or change the melody at any point, he fixes them and makes sure it recorded as it was composed by him.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Apr 23 12:16:41 EDT 2001
  
  AFAIK, IR comes up with the tune/melody first. Per my understanding he is not different from MSV in composing. How can you start with a chord when you dont have a main melody ?
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Mon Apr 23 12:22:26 EDT 2001
  
  How can you start with a chord when you dont have a main melody ...You need to ask Ir, that is his skill.
  
  He makes melodies based on his chords. He writes the chord progression, then based on that he gets the melody. this is the reason majority of his songs are "lyrics for songs". His melodies are also fairly simple when compared with his arrangements.
  
  Msv is totally otherway around, first comes the melody, later comes chords based on the melody,.
  This is the reason why his melodies are very complicated than his arrangement.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Mon Apr 23 13:38:14 EDT 2001
  
  Well, my thinking is a little different here.
  In my opinion, using raagams comes very naturally to IR. In all his compositions, you notice a kind of "spontaneousness" that comes out beautifully. I think he is one of a few composers that used different "modes" of a scale nicely. I think this was already discussed in an IR page I saw before. "Mode" means scales / raagams of course, but just that it is played in a different key. For example (From the same Raja page) if you play the scale of G starting from C, you get Kalyani raagam. In some of IRs compositions, you notice (as the melody flows) a Mode shift changes the Raagam too - and it sounds so natural, but technically scared some Carnatic gurus!!. This shift of mode is very much common in WCM - especially as a main melody is developed into diffent movements (that is one of the reason it is called a movement). Coming back to the topic, IRs change of raagams sounds like a movement,which so nicely comes back to the main theme of the song - very satisfying musically.
  Once again I am not differentiating who is superior, but I think ARR's phrasing or use of Raagams (and thallams of course) touches mostly on the sweeter side. I dont see it "flow" naturally like IRs. People like us would of course love to hear "Hummable" tunes and that is exactly what ARR has given us so far. I am not saying he cannot, but just that would have choose not to.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Apr 23 14:14:15 EDT 2001
  
  I think songs with harmony+melody are like 3D pictures than the 2D pictures which are melody based. If some are able to visualize 2D pictures in their mind I feel IR is able to see 3D pictures. (I am listening to kAvEriye from aduththa vArisu while I am waiting on a install. Amazing !!!! including the use of reverb/fadeouts.)
  
  Re: ARR - "I am not saying he cannot, but just that would have choose not to." As a liberal, I feel anybody should be able to do anything. Not having this attitude leads to all forms of bias/racism etc. So we have to go only by the inclination/attitude of a person based on his past performance. You cannot achieve something which you did not aim for !!
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Tue Apr 24 00:49:17 EDT 2001
  
  kiru a slight clarification..
  
  i did not say "in ARR's song voice is another instrument", rather i said in WCM voice is another instrument (just like that) in ARR's song tune is another part not the main part or the first part. i used the word part because i did not know the correct term for it.
  
  Also, i used thaaLam interchangebly with rhythm. i thought both were same. but sorry for that error so wherever i had mentioned as thaaLam take it as rhythm, appropriately. thanks for pointing it out the mistake.
  
  
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.20) on: Tue Apr 24 01:27:58 EDT 2001
  
  Q: Why does Carnatic songs of IR sound so different from ARR?
  
  A: Generation Gap!
  
  

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