Topic started by paamaram (@ tog-wakko1b.prognet.com) on Wed Dec 8 15:12:38 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
Vairamuthi on KJY in his "indha kuLathil kal eRinthavargaL"
Vairumthu says - When Tamilians themselves pronounce Thamizh as "Thamil" there is no surprise when a man from different language pronounces thamizh badly.
When it has been written as "Thirukoyilae" they (KJY) sing it as "Therukoyilae" - kanadhasan had condemned KJY for which KJY had replied "the poet could have corrected me during the recording".
Vairamuthu says " Whether kanadhasan had taken the right given by KJY or not i took it. But i came to understand lately that KJY could'nt digest this.How much i loved KJY's voice at the same time i was also stern that his pronounciation should also be good. It is like a husband standing outside the maternity ward where his worries are both the mother as well the child should'nt die. My worries are like that... For such a big Sangeetha Methai - could'nt digest this small thing. He thought correcting him was more like troubling(varuthuvathai pol) him..
On the recording studio we shake our hands as roses but when we depart we find blood strains in our hands (olipathivu koodathil ovoru muRaiyum rojakaLAi thaan kaikuluki koLkiRom - kulukia kaikaL pirigiRa pothu kaiyil rathamae kasigirathu)
Vairamuthu says he had to correct KJY on lot of occassions - examples are "thaneeril mooLgathu kAtRuLA banthu" in "eeraman rojave", "muthal ezhuthu thAi mozhiyil thalai ezhuthu yAr mozhiyil" in "veLai puRa onRu.."
More he says "We 've to reconsider 'a'garam is sigaram for thamzih. 'a'garam is only assthivaram for thamizh. 'zha'garam thaan thamizhukku sigaram"
He says " Once MSV was correcting KJY very often in a recording. When they were doing so - and when MSV said 'Ready Take' they did'nt find KJY inside the recording room!! he was on the road in his car!!!!"
Very recently KJY was singing "Aan azhuvathu pizhaiyanathu.penn azhuvathu kalaiyanathu" - as usual there was trouble in 'zha'garam. I corrected him. But KJY became very hot!KJY asked "Will u(Vairamuthu)be correcting till death ?" I asked back "Till whose death" KJY replied "Till both of us die". I replied back saying "No. till thamizh does'nt die". I retured back home without telling him.
(Sorry for the mixing of speeches direct/indirect as well as the poor translation)
Responses:
- From: Udhaya (@ 209.36.218.65)
on: Wed Dec 8 16:10:23 EST 1999
The book is an interesting read, Paamaram. Your translation wasn't off mark and thanks for bringing the book to our attention and your efforts to translate them.
I read it several years ago. VM has chapters on P.Suseelaa (my favorite chapter), KJY, IR, Sivaji, MGR, Bharathiraajaa, Bakyaraj and others. He gives from the heart account of his feelings about and experiences with all these people.
Contrary to popular belief, he really regrets the breakup with IR and laments over the sorry circumstances that led to their parting and the lost efforts by others to patch them up. If we are to believe VM's words, VM was willing to reconcile his differences with IR, but IR wanted no part of a reunion with him.
- From: eden (@ 202.54.71.146)
on: Thu Dec 9 04:24:11 EST 1999
Udhaya!
Unfortunately, no one may ever get a chance to hear the other side of the story...again thanks to IR's opaque(am I right in choosing this word?) nature..
- From: Neels (@ 202.54.125.141)
on: Thu Dec 9 06:21:23 EST 1999
Why does the Kaviyarasu extend his services to ARR and his singers?
Lagaram and lagaram, nagaram and Nagaram... they all invariably get mixed up in all ARR numbers (except when seasoned ones like SPB and Chitra render them).
Isn't it Vairamuthu's responsibility to sit throuh the recordings and correct these 'Thanglish' spoilt brats?
Tamizh chaagira varayilum ivar Yesudas-i chaaduvaaram!!!! Ideppadi Irukku?
Does he predict a short life for Tamizh? Or does he think no end of himself? (pun intended)
This doesn't mean that I object to his correcting KJY. Of course, it's his job and he needs to do it. And we appreciate that!!! And he too, should concentrate on giving his so-called uyirinum melaana Tamizh Film World better, sensible lyrics. Remember he still uses Vervai, Devi, Aavi and Kaaichal? Alaigal Oyvathillayil aarambitha kaaichal, Kaadhalar Dinam varai thodargirathu!!!
And pleease VaiMu Sir, improve your lousy logic!!!
We long for the real "Pon Malai Pozhudu".
Neels
- From: Neels (@ 202.54.125.141)
on: Thu Dec 9 06:21:50 EST 1999
Why does the Kaviyarasu not extend his services to ARR and his singers?
Lagaram and lagaram, nagaram and Nagaram... they all invariably get mixed up in all ARR numbers (except when seasoned ones like SPB and Chitra render them).
Isn't it Vairamuthu's responsibility to sit throuh the recordings and correct these 'Thanglish' spoilt brats?
Tamizh chaagira varayilum ivar Yesudas-i chaaduvaaram!!!! Ideppadi Irukku?
Does he predict a short life for Tamizh? Or does he think no end of himself? (pun intended)
This doesn't mean that I object to his correcting KJY. Of course, it's his job and he needs to do it. And we appreciate that!!! And he too, should concentrate on giving his so-called uyirinum melaana Tamizh Film World better, sensible lyrics. Remember he still uses Vervai, Devi, Aavi and Kaaichal? Alaigal Oyvathillayil aarambitha kaaichal, Kaadhalar Dinam varai thodargirathu!!!
And pleease VaiMu Sir, improve your lousy logic!!!
We long for the real "Pon Malai Pozhudu".
Neels
- From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112)
on: Thu Dec 9 12:35:09 EST 1999
Neels:
KJY kku solli koduththaal thiruththikk koLvaar. Because, adhu avaraala mudiyum. Sila pErukku enna sonnaalum viLangaathu. ARR's singers mukkaalvaasi appadith thaan.
- From: Srikanth (@ 216.32.18.74)
on: Thu Dec 9 14:40:57 EST 1999
Why does the Kaviyarasu not extend his services to ARR and his singers?
-- he does extends, paduthee viduvar, he is a real night mare to (new) singers...this is the opinion most of the brand new singers I know.
Inspite of his involvement mistakes! do happen, this is due the cost factor,, it has to be recorded --- as arr himself takes about 60%-70% of the development time.
Vm was doing his job with care, KJY a little short tempered - failed to do his job with care, there is ends. It is a black dot on a huge white board!,always get an attention.
- From: Rex (@ pat-ert.pseg.com)
on: Thu Dec 9 17:39:13 EST 1999
What was VM doing when people like Udit Narayanan were 'killing' TFM with their poor pronounciation?
- From: Rex (@ pat-ert.pseg.com)
on: Thu Dec 9 17:39:19 EST 1999
What was VM doing when people like Udit Narayanan were 'killing' TFM with their poor pronounciation?
- From: Udhaya (@ 209.36.218.65)
on: Thu Dec 9 20:14:25 EST 1999
Rex,
With KJY it's possible to correct one or two words. With Udit, one has to start from agaraathi. VM probably gave up those songs as sacrificial lambs. Here, the fault rests squarely on ARR's shoulders for picking Thamizh-challenged singers.
- From: tamilkavi (@ gwnj.utstar.com)
on: Fri Dec 10 10:12:54 EST 1999
Guys,
do not call VM as kaviarasu. It insults Kannadasan. VM deserves only VM.
VM does not have the right to talk about correcting others. His songs have mixture of english words and many many no meaningful Thamizh words. So, why complaining.
- From: bb (@ farm1-cache1.gw.uiuc.edu)
on: Fri Dec 10 11:13:21 EST 1999
more excerpts from the book?
- From: Srikanth (@ 216.32.18.74)
on: Fri Dec 10 13:04:58 EST 1999
Rex: Basically he is from north, this itself will be a supporting factor to him, how much ever VM tries!....
Infact I do not feel anything bad about UDIT's pronounciation, he tried hard, like in kasumela he has done it pretty well. and if you see, udit does not sing many tamil songs anymore.
What about sonu nigam , his pronounciation was perfect in Varayo thozi.
poorest is from a guy called Aslum mustafa who sings Samba Samba! from love birds...The line goes like this En tamil ketal thandavalm thudikum!...perfect sample of tamil murder.
---- not only thandavalam ---- for that matter
every tamilian.
This is also due to the fact many singers who sings for arr write the song in English!, instead of tamil.
- From: paamaran (@ tog-wakko1b.prognet.com)
on: Fri Dec 10 13:51:43 EST 1999
In his book "en kuLathil kal eRinthavargaL" (People who influenced me) VM says in the preface that he wants to revive only the positive side of the friendship/influence of the people and not the otherway. But as i go thro' each chapter i find that for people like suratha,IR,KJY it is the other way around. More over kavingar's karvam/thalaiganam is seen all thro' his writing.
i'll come with more facts on the book soon...
- From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net)
on: Fri Dec 10 14:32:52 EST 1999
Srikanth:
I noticed a funny thing about Kaasumela ! Udit was trying his damndest to pronounce it correctly, while Kamal did a superb job of slum tamizh ! For that particular song, Kamal's pronunciation was just right !
- From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com)
on: Fri Dec 10 14:50:37 EST 1999
Srikanth,
Actually English is quite well suited for transliterating thamizh. One could achieve fairly accurate pronunciation isf some amount of minimum care is exercised. Strangely, I have performed mostly with non-thamizh based singers for whom I had to write the songs in English. The only challenge has been the use of 'u' in different situations like paNbu versus ulagam. But I have managed to italicize the shorter flatter version of 'u' and achieved the desired results.
However, the success in getting the proper pronunciation from the singer is largely a function of the dedication (non-thamizh) singer/student and the dedication/knowldege of the instructor.
Sanjeev (a very good freind of mine)has sung maanjOlai kiLi dhaanO, maNNil indha kaadhal, ennavaLEy - all perfectly with my transliteration and his dedication.
As somebody pointed out earlier, the MDs are themselves not knowledgeable, or don't care, or purposely use bad pronunciation as a gimmick.
ARR - many such crimes. But when IR summoned Ila Arun, I had to say "You too IR, then fall TFM"
- From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.139)
on: Fri Dec 10 17:10:05 EST 1999
Can anyone summarize what VM had to say about IR and under what circumstances they decided to work separately?
RajaG,
long before Ila arun, I guess lata and asha had mispronounced a lot of words in IR songs.
In that aspect we can criticize even IR for introducing this trend of bringing in northie singers to sing tamil songs even though it was few and far in between in his times.
- From: Rex (@ 205.139.184.249)
on: Fri Dec 10 19:31:51 EST 1999
Vijay:
I fully agree with your last few lines of the previous posting.
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