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IR - SOME SAYS HE'S NOT A GOOD SOUND ENGINEER

Topic started by dvd (@ 161.142.100.85) on Thu Feb 22 22:47:43 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

HI! I am HCF of IR. I am a fan of ARR too.
Comparing both of these great fames, some claims that even though IR is far more superior in terms of music writing, all classical items (Western or Indian), ragas, melody etc., IR lacks in sound engineering aspects.

ARR, in contrast, produces music of superb sound quality (I think no one denies this fact).

My question here is, how good (or bad rather) is IR in terms of sound quality management and engineering (SQME). Would like people with deep techno-acoustic knowlegde to share their precious views in this thread. Which is more crucial, rhytm or sound quality? What happens if both of them meet?

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Responses:

• From: comment (@ 63.225.173.254) on: Fri Feb 23 00:01:47 EST 2001
  
  Musicians pre-Arr era, starting right from S.G.Kittappa till IR were depending on a sound engineer. Like Moreover recording consoles were not user friendly. They needed special training, It was hard to learn sound engineering aspects for a Mds, (especially in Kollywood, no one teaches anything.). Mds were considered to score music only, few of them had great "banda", they did not consider sound as the main aspect, a SE was a just another artist in the studio.
  Music was recorded with radio in mind, hence quality was not a big issue.
  
  Technology what we have today is 100 times user friendly, easy to handle, It is very cheap and anyone can have a home studio. Current day Mds (please dont even take consider deva) have good knowledge of recording aspects.
  Imho: Arr is one of the main people for this growth. He gave us lots of new things in recording aspects.
  Just check some of his songs and compare them with old songs (with an open mind:), see how he records tabla, dholak, sax, vocals and chorus. He is different in each and very aspect. He is so clear.
  Imho:, his skills are a class apart.
  
  Frankly a good score can sound horrible if recorded badly or crudely. I am telling this by experience.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.231) on: Fri Feb 23 12:46:04 EST 2001
  
  comment,
  
  Do you mean to say maybe some of IR's didn't sound only b'cos it was recorded badly or crudely?
  If yes,it would make me feel good.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.231) on: Fri Feb 23 12:46:43 EST 2001
  
  Typo,
  
  should read "didn't sound good"
  
  
• From: comment (@ 216.160.72.88) on: Fri Feb 23 13:19:20 EST 2001
  
  trend
  without any doubt, some of new the ir
  songs needs better sound and recording, he takes great care in writing a good score, same care should be taken to select a proper sound to match the score. since he is a classical musician, he might not think much about it.
  
  Arr comes from a differnt background, he comes from where sounds plays a vital role. Take the mordern english songs, check the sounds , you will find them very unique. if the notes are played with a different instrument it will sound very poor.
  
  
  
• From: comment (@ 216.160.72.88) on: Fri Feb 23 13:22:43 EST 2001
  
  Others should not be able to tell the sounds source a mds uses.
  Take kr and ysr, i can pinpoint the instrument used and patch number. they dont experiment on sounds. Arr/HJ/Mani sharma are few I know who works a lot on sound. It is hard to reproduce the orinigal tone they used.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Fri Feb 23 13:26:44 EST 2001
  
  Comment,
  
  "if the notes are played with a different instrument it will sound very poor"
  
  I thought a Music director would be aware of choice of instruments even in the pre-modern period.
  One instrument played wrongly can take away the emotional texture of the song.
  What do you think?
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Fri Feb 23 13:43:36 EST 2001
  
  
  Comment,
  
  It depends on how much importance each MD allocates to instruments to convey the emotional content of the song.
  
  Can you think of any song of MSV,ARR or IR where you felt a different instrument would have elevated the song to a new level?Is there any song where they did a terrible mistake in choosing an instrument for a song?
  
  
• From: comment (@ 216.160.72.88) on: Fri Feb 23 13:45:09 EST 2001
  
  trend
  as far a natural instrument goes, yes, oldies like msv has laid good platform. we can get lots of ideas from them. Like take
  msv' "poomudipal intha poogkuzali" and
  ir's "vana malai" from vaithiyar vettu pillai i think, the song situation is similar , ir adapts lots of msv ideas for instrumentation. both the songs uses raga charukesi, the instrument usage is similar etc.
  
  but mordern music apart from good score, it is also a mix of proper sounds.It take a lot of time to get the best sound combination. Mds should know about the instrument well, if they depend on a keyboard player is who might be little weak in this, he has to go with him.
  
  Ir had some good people with him back in 80's today most of them are not there, so he is way behind. Secondly getting a tone in synths like korg-karma or triton is not a easy job, to control a sound you have minimum of 20+ variables. Yes wrong sound kills the emotion,
  and converts it to irritation.
  Secondly using samples is an art.
  I have already named 3 people whom i consider are the best. I learn from them.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Fri Feb 23 14:59:27 EST 2001
  
  Comment,
  I observed HJ's work too.It was surely good. Usually,One of the best works of an MD would be his first film.I think it may be a little early to talk about how good he is!
  
  I surely think some of IR's works would have sounded better had he paid more attention to the instruments.Do you think he has a violin fixation?
  
  ARR I think had a fixation for flute,he used it very frequently in his earlier melodies.Now I think he is moving out into more instruments or its variations.
  (God forbid my non-knowledge)
  Nowadays,his melodies has more variety and divergence. Any views?
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Fri Feb 23 15:01:39 EST 2001
  
  True I agree with comment. You need to have a very good ear to place proper instruments with the right timbre.....Triton is a wonderful toy to expeiment with these...
  
  
• From: comment (@ 63.226.194.166) on: Fri Feb 23 15:07:55 EST 2001
  
  trend, from gentlemen days arr has using natural instruments, he mixes sounds.
  take "pakathe pakathe" he has used natural solo violin, since arr posed with a keyboard eveyone things he uses more keyboards. Imho, Arr uses KB's to create layer under few natural instruments.Certain percussion instruments like thavil , mirudangam were given fresh polish by arr. He is not a simple or a lucky musician.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Fri Feb 23 15:48:41 EST 2001
  
  "I thought a Music director would be aware of choice of instruments even in the pre-modern period."
  Absolutely true. I think even now that should be the case. But people can get away by changing the sound of the instrument using digital techniques so that as a whole it 'fits in place'. IMHO, this is an easy way out. These maybe good for POP music. But real/classic music has/needs to be recreated so the composer have a better idea of the 'timbre' of each instrument. IR surely has a good idea of the timbre of natural instruments. The right combination of instruments are used most of the time. I do think he also has a good idea about synth sounds. But I dont think he cares enough to play with various parameters to modify the sound. (I also think ) his time is better spent writing scores.
  Re: recording. I have written often in these pages about various types of recording. IR's songs (mostly) are acoustic/live recordings. The last album that I think that was recorded well was 'thEvar magan'. But in IR's recordings since the percussion is natural, they do not sound well on ordinary music systems (which cannot reproduce low frequencies, also lack resolving power to separate the various instruments).These recordings have to be 'mastered' for consumers audio systems. This does not happen all the time. Simple antidote to this is to increase and bass and treble on your music system. (I do this on my car stereo, but at home I have a good resolving system so I dont). IR left the sound quality to the studio equipment/engineer but I think his levels are okay maybe a little low on the bass when it comes to balancing.
  
  No IR does not have a fixation for violin. He has an obsession with WCM :) that is all. Strings are the bread and butter of WCM.
  
  Anyways, I am old-fashioned. I think an MD/composer should concentrate on the melody/notes and interplay of notes of various instruments. But I know that this is how the POP musicians operate (new/modified sounds). Are we seeing a musical revolution, trend ? Time will answer.
  
  (Yeah, BTW, with better recording many of IR's songs with natural instruments sound absolutely fantastic).
  
  
• From: Curious (@ 209.187.151.146) on: Fri Feb 23 16:06:23 EST 2001
  
  BTW, how do you guys think about recording qualities of MSV and IR in early 80s? Who was good? Can anybody throw some interesting info on this?
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Fri Feb 23 16:09:08 EST 2001
  
  Kiru,
  
  I don't know exactly what kind of compositions in Tamil are POP.If you want me a name of genre of ARR's music,from just the listening point of view
  I would say most of his melodies composition style and sound usage resembles New Age music much more than POP.
  "(I also think ) his time is better spent writing scores".
  This sounds like an excuse.Actually I just intended to make a comment about IR.Sorry if it sounded like an accusation.
  
  "Are we seeing a musical revolution, trend ?"
  musical revolution in TFM will come based on what the college or high-school students . They play the most important role(being biggest consumers for one) in determining whether the music is a hit irrespective of whether it is technically superior or not.
  I surely think they do not have cheap music taste.
  Even if they like someone contrary to our tastes we have to accept that as the best choice for most.
  I think in that sense ARR had the biggest effect in making them to listen to Tamil songs.this may not be a healthy trend or I may be wrong.
  I can't say if it had been a revolution or not.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Fri Feb 23 16:44:59 EST 2001
  
  Trend,
  What instruments constitute new age? What is new age music can u explain? and how does POP differ?
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Fri Feb 23 16:55:56 EST 2001
  
  Swamiji,
  
  I think you misunderstood me.When I meant the new age music I meant the music I have listened in the New Age category like Clannad, Secret garden etc.I may be wrong.
  
  I don't know how POP is different from this New Age Music.I just believe they are different.
  It would be great if you could explain something about it.
  
  
• From: pg (@ 12.20.190.1) on: Fri Feb 23 17:04:08 EST 2001
  
  Generally NewAge music tries to create an ambience of space.
  
  

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