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Tamil film industry is more of HYPE than substance

Topic started by Khandekar (@ 203.197.129.33) on Mon Jun 21 17:10:09 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Tamil film industry is more of hype than substance.Sivaji is touted as a great actor when he is more of overacting than of any real acting.
Rajinikanth is regarded as a superstar.What he does is a few gimmicks!and Illayaraja is considered a genius!when he is nowhere compared to SD and RD Burman.Tamil film industry has to get away with hype and look for some substance.

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Responses:

• From: SitaRam (@ portal.ameritech.com) on: Mon Jun 21 17:30:08 EDT 1999
  
  FYI first comes substance and then comes hype. Naushad Ali has only said IR has achieved 100 times more than any composer in India (said in 1989) Sivaji got the Chevalier award of France and great recognition world wide. Rajinikanth is a great performer and who can succeed without gimmicks which is really a small part of the variety delivered by this great artiste. Khandekar sir, neeng onnu pannunga. Please see and her more of these great geniuses movies and then find out if they are worth it. See with a different mind set and a very critical approach.
  
  
• From: bb (@ inehou-pxy04.compaq.com) on: Mon Jun 21 17:30:34 EDT 1999
  
  the only thing we can discuss here in this topic is whether IR is nowhere compared to SDB/RDB...
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Mon Jun 21 17:42:47 EDT 1999
  
  Khandekar:
  
  Substantiate your statement (ref: IR), please. Else, you will be rendered a day dreamer or a person writing for "hype" (read "to publicize your opinions") and no substance !!
  
  
• From: SRK (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Jun 21 19:38:58 EDT 1999
  
  bb: I'm surprised you aren't reacting more strongly!! :-))
  
  
• From: bb (@ dialup-209.245.199.82.houston1.level3.net) on: Mon Jun 21 20:41:52 EDT 1999
  
  SRK: adhukku namma aaLunga neraiya pEr irukkaanga:)) let us see if we have a decent comparison cutting out sweeping statements:))
  
  
• From: kumar (@ 148.5.53.147) on: Mon Jun 21 21:38:25 EDT 1999
  
  please close such bottom less threads from topless people.
  
  
• From: SK (@ azure.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Jun 21 21:40:36 EDT 1999
  
  Khandekar:
  
  You need to put forth a lot more arguments before
  making these comments. Only then we can decide
  whether you are hypEkar or substancEkar and
  then think of getting into some discussions.
  
  
• From: Deva's Fan (@ bkj-cache81.jaring.my) on: Mon Jun 21 21:59:06 EDT 1999
  
  For people who couldn't care less for non-TRM, SDB and RDB are non-entities.
  
  
• From: Deva's Fan (@ bkj-cache83.jaring.my) on: Mon Jun 21 21:59:16 EDT 1999
  
  For people who couldn't care less for non-TFM, SDB and RDB are non-entities.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.26.190) on: Mon Jun 21 23:08:22 EDT 1999
  
  khandekar,
  your posting is very humorous. its been a long time since we have had humurous postings in this forum.welcome and have a nice time:))
  
  
• From: Rags (@ stingray.cincom.com) on: Mon Jun 21 23:11:14 EDT 1999
  
  Please...lets keep such stuff away...
  
  Suggest we remove this posting rightaway - Chiefs pls note.
  
  The forum has reached a level of maturity and it is futile to discuss on some sweeping statements by a Khandekar.
  
  Maybe he belongs to a breed who has been brought up on Dada Khondke's lavani beats in a Mumbai chawl. What a pity ! NOM - just a rejoinder.
  
  I consider the topic closed. Period
  
  
  
  
• From: Rags (@ stingray.cincom.com) on: Mon Jun 21 23:13:53 EDT 1999
  
  "suggest we remove this posting..." actually means "suggest we close this thread..."
  
  sorry...
  
  
• From: Raja Fan (@ spider-th042.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Jun 22 00:02:43 EDT 1999
  
  I aM Joinging Deva's fan, Rags and Vijay in the good humor of this thread. Khandekar is a good sport and we enjoyed having innovative and such revolutionary suggestioning from the great Khandekar. Long Live Khandekar
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ proxy1.ykt.prodigy.net) on: Tue Jun 22 00:04:40 EDT 1999
  
  Khandekar, there is a 'dfljkjk' thread which can accomodate all this.
  
  
• From: S (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Tue Jun 22 00:24:55 EDT 1999
  
  nAn ingE varavE illai :-(
  
  
• From: pg (@ hqinbh2.ms.com) on: Tue Jun 22 09:39:47 EDT 1999
  
  Khandekar is another of those hit & run case and my guess is that he will not be seen again in this forum.
  
  Don't waste your time on this.
  
  
• From: Khandekar (@ 203.197.129.37) on: Tue Jun 22 14:25:47 EDT 1999
  
  As Rags as accused me I was not brought up on Dada Khondke's Lavani.I have lived in Tamil Nadu for a long time and I know enough about Tamil films.While I agree that IR was a great MD people describing him as a genius and the ultimate composer is not acceptable.There had been many great composers before him.SD Burman was one such.Extremely talented ,I reckon the most talented of all MDs in India.While IR was a pioneer as far as TFM is concerned,SDB was a pioneer of indian film music itself.While RD Burman not so talented as his father SDB,he was a very great innovator.He tried Fusion long before IR and ARR tried.His immaculate use of Western Synthesizers with Indian classical instruments paved the way for all the other composers.Both these two great composers are venerated but there is HYPE surrounding them unlike IR.ISAIGNANI,RAGADEVAN,........,What is all this?None of the MDs can be considered as geniuses.As IR himself admitted in one of the interviews("Film music oru emmathu velai" (words of IR)).He himself admitted that Film music is mostly cut and paste albeit in a subtle way.For example if you listen to the starting piece of "Poongathavai thazhthidava" in "Nizhalgal" and hear Bach's violin concerto you will understand IR's words.Only persons like Thyagaraja,Bach,Motzart and likes can described by terms like genius or Gnani.Not our MDs please.
  
  
• From: Khandekar (@ 203.197.129.37) on: Tue Jun 22 14:26:10 EDT 1999
  
  As Rags has accused me I was not brought up on Dada Khondke's Lavani.I have lived in Tamil Nadu for a long time and I know enough about Tamil films.While I agree that IR was a great MD people describing him as a genius and the ultimate composer is not acceptable.There had been many great composers before him.SD Burman was one such.Extremely talented ,I reckon the most talented of all MDs in India.While IR was a pioneer as far as TFM is concerned,SDB was a pioneer of indian film music itself.While RD Burman not so talented as his father SDB,he was a very great innovator.He tried Fusion long before IR and ARR tried.His immaculate use of Western Synthesizers with Indian classical instruments paved the way for all the other composers.Both these two great composers are venerated but there is HYPE surrounding them unlike IR.ISAIGNANI,RAGADEVAN,........,What is all this?None of the MDs can be considered as geniuses.As IR himself admitted in one of the interviews("Film music oru emmathu velai" (words of IR)).He himself admitted that Film music is mostly cut and paste albeit in a subtle way.For example if you listen to the starting piece of "Poongathavai thazhthidava" in "Nizhalgal" and hear Bach's violin concerto you will understand IR's words.Only persons like Thyagaraja,Bach,Motzart and likes can described by terms like genius or Gnani.Not our MDs please.
  
  
• From: SitaRam (@ portal.ameritech.com) on: Tue Jun 22 14:54:31 EDT 1999
  
  Khandekar saab, you are right to some extent. IR has even paid great tributes to SDB and RDB. But I think IR has taken so many existing concepts to such impossible heights that SDB look antiquated. RDB is definitely unique and his melodies are very deep, may have an edge over IRs. In BGM SDB/RDB were still learning the nuances. Salil once had to help out SDB in a background score situation because only Salil knew the time factor and to write western notations. (Salil's songs were far far superior to SDB.) SDB was definitely a pioneer but to say IR is nobody compared to SDB is gross. How many songs have SDB and RDB composed? IR has over 3000 songs to his credit and you may have heard only a few 100 to say that IR is overrated. IR has always maintained the fact that composing itself is a game of cheating the listener. How many composers in the world have reached that level of absolute knowledge to accept that fact. Most of the composers are inspired composers and have wonderful tunes appearing only ocassionally from nowhere or inconsistently in serendipity. But, IR in later stages developed the art of creating music anytime, anywhere and anyhow. That feat has not been achieved even by the great Classical Maestros.
  
  How much innovation did RDB/SDB bring about compared to IR? IR brought so many fresh sounds, tunes, arrangements, rhythms that even today there is no match for those. Indian film music reached its zenith only with IR at this peak. Now, it is being taken to a different direction by ARR just as Salil brought a new direction to it in the late 60s.
  
  
• From: kumar (@ 98ae34a7.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jun 22 21:14:55 EDT 1999
  
  Rags I think you should stop first making sweeping statements against anyone in this forum. so you better mind your language.
  
  else
  Suggest we remove you rightaway - Chiefs pls note.
  
  
• From: V. Balaji (@ 1cust237.tnt8.nyc3.da.uu.net) on: Tue Jun 22 21:47:17 EDT 1999
  
  Khandekar Saab:
  
  Your assesment of SDB and RDB though correct, hardly reflects the whole truth. SDB was great in an era of soft melody and meaningful lyrics. Who can forget his Guru Dutt(Pyaasa..), All Dev Anand Starrers(jewel thief (dhil Phukkare's opening beat still rings in my ear's), Guide to name a few) and Bimal Roy's numbers. However hardly he dominated the HFM, as he had tough competition initially from Sri Ramchandra, OPNayyar, Shankar Jaikishen and followed by Ravi, KA and even from LP. Though he peaked in Aradhana(RDB played a major role), he never was the number 1 MD. He ended his career with films like Barood which were a totall non-starter. He gave music for say 200 films (My guess) and had some 400 good numbers.
  
  RDB was number on in the whole 70s, with Aradhana(some songs), Katti Patang, Mere Jeevan Sathi and was always had competition from LP(poor MDs, so far Taal is considered, but good in Raag dept). However with Bappi Lahiri's entry in early 80s (Disco Dancer), RDB became a Non-entity. His overworking led to medical problems and hardly produce the magic of 70s. He was a so-so through out 80s (except for Sagar, Manzil Manzil and some numbers). He had to wait till 1993(or 4) to get his 1947-A love story to show some promise.He gave music to 300 or so films. Harldy you can count 300 good numbers.
  
  Compate this with IR
  700 films, Top spot from 1976s till 1992 (Roja overshadowed Thevar Magan and Paandiyan), though some down in between. 1980-82 , competition from Sankar Ganesh in Palaivana Cholai and Moonru Mugam.
  Regained since 1998(after the success of Kathalukku Mariyadai) and now a top MD in TFM. Meanwhile he had been successful in Telugu till 1992(from early 1980's with K.Vishwanath and Poorna chanra group) and lately a huge success in Malayalam Film Industry. He has bagged 3 National Awards. I don't recollect RDB has received any National award. SDB I am not sure.
  
  If you take number of films, number of successful songs and number of awards, IR will win SDB and of-course RDB hands-down. The only draw back of IR is that he was not successful in nationalizing his music. He is still a South-Indian favorite. That alone in no-way makes him any less great.
  
  Sure even I am pissed of he titles and superlative praises by some opportunitis producers and film-personalities. But most lovers of his music, love because of their superiority.
  He is one MD, hard to find. It is not un-true that if HFM had some one like Illayaraja they may have treated him in equal status to Lata and may be even more. Had he been some where, he would have been surely called the God's messenger of music.
  
  Khandekar, I can understand your frustration of people-worshipping in Tamil Industry. That is it's curse. But to call IR's music is Hype is totally unwarranted. I give an example, which may not mean anything to you, but shows IR's master-piece.
  I played "raja raja chozhan..' from Rettai Vaal Kuruvi to my russian friend. She got mesmerized by the interlude and she called the music magical. Sure this may be one person's pov, but it means something. Sure there have been great numbers from SDB and RDB, but IR is totally different from them. SDB is a great music director and RDB is an entertaining MD (Ghar and Aandhi, Parichay and other Gulzar films like Masoom did have excellent numbers) and talented one and was a good one for the time (70s).
  
  However IR stands apart from any of this MD. You can compare Naushad with SDB or SJ with SDB, you can compare LP with RDB (ofcourse RDB would stand better and win), but you can hardly compare an MDs both from North and SOuth with IR.
  IR is a great treasure to Indian Film Industry. It is sad IR didn't shine in HFM (partly his fault and bad-luck).
  
  Let's say that calling deva as 'Thenisai thendral' is a hype. Even calling IR as 'Isai Kadavul' is surely a hype. Calling him 'Isai Gyani' is not too much.
  
  Please listen to some of his music (see Rex's page, R.Balaji's Page, Shibu's Page) and judge for yourself. You may not get convinced that he is the greatest Music Director, but surely it make you believe that he is a Genius.
  
  Listen and Decide.
  
  Good Luck
  
  V. Balaji
  
  
• From: Raja Fan (@ spider-wc043.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Jun 22 23:32:42 EDT 1999
  
  Balaji, really a honest and modest response. Khandekar should be convinced atleast with your appropriate words.
  
  

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