Why hate ARR?

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Why hate ARR? Why hate ARR?

Topic started by Sarcasm (@ blondie.cfu-cybernet.net) on Sat Dec 6 00:51:30 EST 1997.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: Sarcasm (@ blondie.cfu-cybernet.net) on: Sat Dec 6 00:53:13 EST 1997

I was wondering, why do so many of you in the TFM discussion forum hate ARR with all of their hearts? What has he done to you? Why do you think he deserves this hate? Do you not like his style? I would like to know.
From: shankar (@ webgate6.mot.com) on: Sat Dec 6 07:31:04 EST 1997

sarcasm,
Certainly .I don't like his style of copying songs and claiming it original . If U copy be bold and accept it one way or the other (nobody is a fool to accept it directly) like deva who said "enakku kelvi gnanam thaan" (adhai avar solli than namakku theriyanuma) . If ARR had accepted that (at least indirecly and given some original ,good numbers , mind U , atleast one beat in his songs are copied from some english songs ) I 'd like him atleast for his honesty . He said in one of the interviews that he hasn't listened to ace of the base at all and it's just a coincidence that the same tune came in telephone manipol !!!
(the whole thing came into light only because junta was able to identify the tune .There are numerous tunes he's lifted from those not-so-famous bands which can't be identified this easily) Some may argue that the songs claimed to be copied by ARR r better than original (for this , I have my answer in ARR's tunes thread ) .
I used to like ARR when I listned to his songs in roja and thiruda ^2 . In fact ,I thought he's the next IR (wait wait ,let me finish) .Once I found that it was mere reproduction of somebody else's
tune , I lost the respect I had for ARR (he's also one among the copycats ,after all)
U'll debarr a guy from writing exams if he's found copying .Will U boycott ARR ??? (u may say If done so,there would be no music directors in india , but exclude the guys with real stuff like IR ,jaidev , RD Burman , MSV , V kumar and vijayabhaskar )
Think this clarifies ur doubt .I can't stop him from scoring music .Atleast I can try proving that he doesn't deserve the comparison with the great MDs given above .
From: Rajesh (@ pdxss902.jf.intel.com) on: Sat Dec 6 19:38:49 EST 1997

I agree with Shankar to a great extent. I dont
want to go on record that ARR does not give good
music at all. All I want to emphasise is that he
does not deserve the attention he gets. About
Vande Mantaram, I read an article which said, it
is the national anthem. This is too much. This is
all proof of how much marketing can do to a product. I strongly feel that press and media play a great role in rise of a person. When IR was at top, there was always a grudge against him. Neither the press nor the film world was too appreciative of him. Ofcoure he was not that good
with public relations and stuff like that. But they had no choice and they stuck with him. Its all but human that once they came across people
who can give some songs and who are more accessible, the media hypes up. This is not to say
they dont deserve any mention at all. All I am concerned about is how much of attention they get and whether they deserve it.

One classic case of marketing was that of Yannis concert in India. I have never heard of Yanni before( Sorry Yanni fans). But there was so much
hype about his music at Taj Mahal. Last week, I
saw the program in Phili in PBS Channel. It was really good and I liked it. Now I sincerly feel
that NBW and HTNI were great and many would agree
with me. But I seriously doubt whether it was marketed properly bcos there are many in Madras who are still ignorant of this. Now Yanni is good and I would listen to him when I get chance. How was this made possible - Because of his concert at
Taj. ARR is renowned and his casette is released in 27 countries. People will listen to him. Why doesnt anyone come forward to do that with IR still amazes me. My theory is that he may be a bit tough. In that Yanni concert, pan wallahs and ordinary people in the street said "Its a dream come true for them". I am positive 90% of them dont know who Yanni is and have never listened to him.

IR is a musical genius. Now I am a great IR fan but not averse to ARRs music. But what frustrates me is the media hype ARR recieves. Definitely,
it plays a major role. It gives an impression as though ARR is a genius and IR is written off. I dont care what people have to say about IR bcos I
know his worth. Even when IR was at his peak, he never got this media attention. Just because a person is tough, you just cant ignore his talents.
He never got the appreciation that is due for him.
I respect him a lot but when I see that people who
cannot be compared to his creativity being portrayed as greats, I feel horrible. I cant stop anything happening now but it will definitely go down in history as IR is one genius who never got the respect he deserved.

Many of my friends just listen to some songs now and then bcos they were hits or marketed well in India. What makes me sad is when they come and tell me "No one can compose like ARR. He is just great". Initially I used to play IR songs and convince them that there was a person called IR
whom u guys completely neglected. Now I dont feel
like convincing anyone because I am convinced that
it just falls on deaf ears.

I think thats long enough. I am happy if atleast one person agrees with me with an unbiased analysis.
From: T.MADHAN RAGHAVAN (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Sun Dec 7 12:07:09 EST 1997

The Year 1981 - I was studying in my fourth standard in Madras. "Nizhalgal" was released - the song " Ponmaalai " and " Poongadhavey" were sensational hits - but how ? for the first few weeks after the release of the audio album, there was UNSPARING SCRUTINY OF THE ALBUM !! RIGHT FROM SANGEEDHA VIDHWAANS TO COLLEGE STUDENTS, EVERYBODY AND SUNDRY, DISSECTED THE ALBUM, TOOK IT PART BY PART ANALYSED EACH AND EVERY SONG AND THEN RELUCTANTLY CERTIFED THE ALBUM AS A GOOD ONE - MIND YOU, " Nizhalgal " SONGS ARE SOME OF THE MOST UNFORGETTABLE GEMS OF ILLAYARAAJA.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS NOW ? A SONG OR AN ALBUM BECOMES A SENSATION EVEN BEFORE IT IS EVEN RELEASED !! YES, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CASE OF MANI RATNAM'S " BOMBAY " - EVEN WITHOUT BUYING AND LISTENING TO THE SONGS , EVERYBODY WERE CRYIONG HOARSE ABOUT THE
" BEAUTIFUL" , " MELODIOUS " SONGS FROM " BOMBAY" !!!

HOW MANY OF ARR'S ALBUMS ARE SCRUTINISED PROPERLY, THE WAY IR'S ALBUMS USED TO BE SCRUTINISED? EVEN NOW, IR'S FANS CRITICALLY ANALYSE IR'S WORKS AND THEN PASS JUDGEMENTS.
I AM SUPPOSED TO BE AN ARDENT ADMIRER OF IR - BUT EVEN I CRITICISE IR A LOT WHEN HE CALLOUSLY GIVES BAD MUSIC SOMETIMES - BUT DESPITE ALL THE CRITICAL BOMBARDMENTS, WHICH IR'S WORKS RECIVE, IR RAISES ABOVE ALL THESE AND SHINES IN HIS IMPERIOUS GLORY.

ARR HAS NOT EVEN TRIED TO PROVE HIS ORIGINALITY.
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Mon Dec 8 01:04:49 EST 1997

Blondie - You should have been around when Ilayaraaja just entered the field. He too faced a lot of criticism and hatred. MSV fans were full of contempt for him. The reasons may be different now but the situation is still the same. Only, it is felt harder due to today's speedier communication facilities. Do not fret. History has a habit of repeating itself.
From: Ramki (@ pm136-10.dialip.mich.net) on: Mon Dec 8 01:36:08 EST 1997

Madhan a humble suggestion.Can u avoid using capital letters to highlight ur points??U can use either bold or italics which will be more presentable and readable.Again this is a suggestion made humbly

thanks
From: Arun (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Mon Dec 8 07:55:55 EST 1997

Mr./Ms. Sarcasm:

Would you know the meaning if I said:

Kaayththa maram kalladi padum.

- Arun.
From: T.Madhan Raghavan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Mon Dec 8 10:47:46 EST 1997

Mr.Ramki,

In an emotional outburst, I used capital letters - kindly excuse me if it was a bit toomuch for your eyes - unarchi vasappattuvittaen - forgive me for this minor lapse
From: Pazhamozhiyai_thiruthiyavan (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Mon Dec 8 11:57:07 EST 1997

Arun:

A quick correction.
It is actually, "Kaaytha Maramthaan Kalladi Padum" which means, Entha Marathil Kaaikanighal kaaithu ullatho, antha marathiltaan Kal vesi kaaikanigalai edukka muyarchippaargal. Kaaikkaatha marathai nobody Seendufies.
So, your statement "Kaayaatha Maram Kalladi Padum" kind of gives the wrong meaning to the point I think you are making.
From: Thavarukku_varunthubavan (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Mon Dec 8 11:59:48 EST 1997

Arun:

Sorry for the unneccessary correction I had made. You did write correctly as "Kaaytha Maram Kalldai Padum" and somehow, I read it as "Kaayaatha Maram". Sorry and ignore my posting.
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Mon Dec 8 15:53:38 EST 1997

The question here is whether the tree is actually Kaaythirku to kalladi pada? or just because of computer technology it deceives you and gives you a look like it actually Kaaytha tree!!!!
By today's technology anything could happen, even dinosaurs are coming to earth whynot a kaaytha tree.

So guys don't waste your stones till you're sure :-)

MPR
From: Arun (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Mon Dec 8 16:03:14 EST 1997

Mr. Pazhamozhiyai_thiruthiyavan:

"Kaaikkaatha marathai nobody Seendufies."

You mean, *mottai* maram? ;-)

Sorry guys, Couldn't resist; no offense meant.

- Arun.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Mon Dec 8 16:07:08 EST 1997

ARR is one of the most hyped MD's I have ever seen. The media talks about him as if he is the best thing to happen to Indian music. That guy is
no way near IR and RD Burman, two of the best
post 1970 indian music directors. This after
discounting copied stuff of RD Burman.
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Mon Dec 8 17:20:20 EST 1997

Ella maramum oru naal mottai maramaaga aagiye theera vendum. that's the beauty of nature!!!
All mottai trees don't give you fruits either, this is too nature. But only one *mottai* tree still actually Kaayththufies !!!! Isn't this interesting???

take it easy, Guys :-)))

MPR
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Mon Dec 8 17:23:00 EST 1997

Ella maramum oru naal mottai maramaaga aagiye theera vendum. that's the beauty of nature!!!
All mottai trees don't give you fruits either, this is too nature. But only one *mottai* tree still actually Kaayththufies !!!! Isn't this interesting???

take it easy, Guys :-)))

MPR
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Mon Dec 8 23:30:11 EST 1997

I like the flow of this discussion. We should all argue like this without getting emotionally charged. Keep it going guys!
From: shankar (@ webgate1.mot.com) on: Tue Dec 9 01:47:53 EST 1997

arun,
paithiyangalum (paavam avargal) kooda kalladi paduvaargal thriyumo ?? adhupola.............
From: shankar (@ webgate3.mot.com) on: Tue Dec 9 01:48:10 EST 1997

arun,
thirudargal kooda kalladi paduvaargal thriyumo ?? adhupola.............
From: shankar (@ webgate2.mot.com) on: Tue Dec 9 01:48:54 EST 1997

guys,
pls ignore my first posting .sorry
From: aruLarasan (@ bh33402.umsl.edu) on: Tue Dec 9 12:52:40 EST 1997

Let's get back to original intent of this topic. (Nov, I liked your
statement.)

Hyping, indeed, is a major factor in setting ARR as a lead MD in
India. Of late, I find a excellent chappak kattu for ARR songs.
Will come back to it at the end. Before that, some thoughts, in
general, about marketing.

There is this person called Prof. Gordon Shaw at Univ. of Cal Berkeley.
He used to be a Physics Prof but now, I think, he is in the Psych
Dept. Couple of years back he published a small paper describing
his experiments on effect of music on short term memory. Some UG
students were asked to listened to various types of music (like
soft rock, hard rock, folk, country, Beethovan, Bach, etc.) during
which time they were given something to read (I don't exactly
remember the experiment but it goes this way) and after the session
they were given an objective test. Correlation studies were done
and it was concluded that, I think, Bach's The Art of Fugue, had the
best effect on the students in that the student retained more after
that particular session. Voila, immediately after this study, I noticed
ads selling classical music with the claim that "clinical proven
to help student do well in school" or some such non-sense. The expt.
was, in my humblest opinion, a motta thala mozhangAl mudichcu
type and the marketing dragons wasted no time in grabbing this "fact".

Similarly, it has been established that there is a considerable reduction
in the incidence of high blood pressure related ailments (especially
heart attacks) in household that have pet animal. There is a simple
common sense reason for this observation - pet animals love
with any expectation of reciprocation. What happens? Rollston Purina
sells its dog food using this "fact". "They take care of you and
we take care or them" type of message.

Marketing people have no shame (and of course no brains). Coming back
to ARR, I see almost everywhere that "like a typical ARR album,
this one also starts haunting you after you have listened to it
after 20 (or two million) times)". What a non-sense. A good
song is the one like chinna chinna Asai (to take an example from ARR
himself). I very much remember this. I this it was a dhIpAvaLi release
(or some such festival day release) and Madras DD had new song at around
noon. I was helping in the kitchen (seriously) when this song was
telecast. I rushed to see who the MD was and found some new name.
That was a great song and a great hit. Even now I find something
new in that song every time I listen to it. Can quote lot such songs.
(IR fans remember kAdhOram lOlAkku. What an instant hit!) Now it
looks like he cannot anymore make such great music and everyone say
"wait, listen to it 2000000 times, and you will like it". I want to
end with what my thamizh vAdhyAr in my high school used to say when
we asked him how he could teach so well. "padhinanchu varusham
teach paNNA andha kazhudhaiyum nannA teach paNNum".

aruLarasan
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tc01.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Dec 9 13:35:49 EST 1997

aruLarasan:

As a senior marketing professional with work experiences in top-notch Fortune 500 Companies based in the US, and one Marketing degree & two Engineering degrees, I find your statement marketing people have no shame and (no brains) to be an interesting hypothesis. Most probably, I'll rush out right now, recruit a random sample of 100 marketing executives, and design a "correlational" study to test that hypothesis out. :-)))

Sorry for the digression, carry on about ARR!!
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Tue Dec 9 20:40:19 EST 1997

Arularasan:

Marketing people have no shame (and brains)?

I am amazed to see Kanchana, being a top marketing
professional, giving only a cool resistance to what
you've said.

No shame? Have you listened carefully to the song,
oorukkum vetkamillai, indha ulagukkum vetkamillai?

No brains? I think the customers who
believe in what the marketing people say are the ones who have no brains. The
marketing people have the best brains;
wouldn't you agree?
From: pg (@ client-116-118.bellatlantic.net) on: Tue Dec 9 21:35:29 EST 1997

Marketing people are very brainy people : their brains are put to the wrong job ! Marketing people are the biggest liars in the whole world (maybe only next to politicians). And they are trained to lie in marketing programmes taught in MBA courses around the world. Lying is an art institutionalised in these MBA courses.
(I am a MBA myself).

Sorry for the digression - couldn't help myself.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ti01.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Dec 9 21:37:42 EST 1997

aruLarasan:
Thank you for the follow-up e-mail you had sent to me explaining your thoughts on Marketing and social relevance. We'll continue to talk--we may end up writing a sociology or political economy dissertation together. :-))

Keerthi:
Thank you for your keen and correct observations, but I couldn't say all that about myself or the consumers without sounding unprofessional, can I? :-))
aruLarasan's note de-emphasized the brains part of his statement, and builds on his vision of what constiutes an ideal society and examines what marketing's role is in today's society within the context of those ideals.

In terms of marketing and TFM, I've put down my thoughts on that in Ravi's Advertising & Popularity thread. I cannot make any specific statements since I am indirectly tied to the entertainment industry.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ti01.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Dec 9 21:49:10 EST 1997

PG:

I do go one step above an average MBA in the "Institutionalized Lying" as you call it since I have a Doctorate in the same. :-))

In my personal opinion, any other comments on marketing should move to Ravi's Advertising & Popularity thread to preserve this thread's integrity.
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Tue Dec 9 21:53:57 EST 1997

My including brains there was in the line of

aRaththAn varuvdhE inbam matRellAm
puRaththa pugazhum ila.

But later I realized that that was inappropriate. I agree with
most of what pg write except "marketing people are very brainy
people" :-)

ayyO ammA vidunga pOrum.

Why no one has commented about my statement

"listen to 20 or 2 millions times and it becomes a
hit" ?
(trying hard to bring the discussion back to the topic.)

:-) )
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ti01.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Dec 9 22:01:03 EST 1997

aruLarasan:

good try! Carry on with the ARR stuff!! :-)))
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Tue Dec 9 22:28:01 EST 1997

Arularasan:

OK, getting back to your point:
padhinanchu varusham teach paNNA andha kazhudhaiyum nannA teach paNNum

One can also give examples the other way. If
you take certain deep mathematical results, you
get to appreciate them only if you repeatedly
think about them and analyse them carefully.
Who knows? ARR's songs perhaps belong to that
category! See, I am not trying to imply
anything here. All that I am trying to say is
that you cannot put down the value of a song
because it takes time to appreciate it better.
In fact, this phenomenon of taking a lot of
time to finally end-up appreciating a song
seems to have been unheard of in TFM until ARR
walked-in. Don't you think that, by itself, makes
ARR's music rather special?
From: shankar (@ webgate6.mot.com) on: Wed Dec 10 00:23:56 EST 1997

Sathiya keerthi,
If U find a funda /fact the hard way , U'll always remember it whenever U encounter a similar situation or atleast u'll appreciate it .I don't think one gets reminded of any ARR's numbers (a few exceptions) if they listen to a good song ( ex when rakkamma kaiyathattu rocked TN I heard some people telling it's as great as ilamai idho idho from sakalakala vallavan ) . So I think the opinion of arularasan in this issue is right as NONE of ARR's songs are perennial (will be evident after 2002-give atleast ten years ) .
From: steven (@ bat-48-201.tm.net.my) on: Wed Dec 10 03:34:33 EST 1997

AR RAHMAN is the best MD.
From: aruLarasan (@ bh33405.umsl.edu) on: Wed Dec 10 12:46:16 EST 1997

Sathya Keerthi,

Your statement is in a sense true but the only reason I reapeatedly
listen to some great hits of ARR is because of his recording techniques.
engErndhO flute violin-lAm varum. The man has an excellent sense of
sound. But I don't categorze them as great songs. There are other kinds
of songs that make you listen repeatedly. Two examples from ARR
himself are

pORAlE poNNuththAyi pOgiRa pOkkila manasath thottu

and

ottagaththa kattikkO.

These songs make you come back again and again and the reason is
excellent music. Most other songs, like those in ratchagan, are
just gymnastics and they dont (and wont) impress me even after
listening to them for a large number of times.

(To put it succintly, many ARR songs are like vikrOm vAngrOm - title
song of Vikram. But there are good exceptions like pORAlE poNNuththAyi.)

aruLarasan
From: bs (@ neptune.bt.com) on: Fri Dec 12 14:45:00 EST 1997

We have to recommend the National Awards Committee
to give the Best Sound Engineer award to ARR
rather than best MD....
From: Gopal (@ 1cust221.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Sat Dec 13 00:53:18 EST 1997

Arul
I had this (2million times) stuff in mind, but you were quick to make the quip. In many places in DF threads, our makkaL have stated "I listened to this ARR album and after listening to this album for more than a week, i am now able to enjoy the songs." Thats funny, right? Less said about this, better.
From: Arun. (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Sat Dec 13 11:28:17 EST 1997

aruLarasan and Gopal:

No matter what theory or comment that you give on the observation that it takes people repeated listening to enjoy ARR's music better, it just fails to reflect badly on ARR. I don't know for sure why it takes time (I can think of few theories too.) but this fact really adds only credit to his music. After all, would it be good music if the opposite is true? (That if you like it when you listen to it the first time and you cannot stand it after few listenings.)

So far we have had several theories on ARR from IR fans, why not this? Go right ahead; Use your imagination. :-)

- Arun.
From: Pratap (@ lucknow.cs.berkeley.edu) on: Sun Dec 14 02:06:12 EST 1997

Gopal:
Nice one!!!

Arun:
Read what Gopal has written twice and then you will understand what he means!!??!!
From: FANOFIR (@ 129.107.27.47) on: Mon Dec 15 15:26:45 EST 1997

I liked his first album "Roja." There you could clearly see the difference. When IR came to music
world, there was a noticable change in music. The same with ARR, when he was introduced. Everyone was saying that he was an another IR. But then he changed his style to "Steal & modify" and "cut & paste."
I listed to one "Paddimanram" by Thinndukal Liyoni. He showed at least ten example where ARR
cheated the audians. For ex, the song, "Pennalla pennalla uthappo, sivanthan kannanga" is copied from IR's "Pesum manimithu rojakkal pillaikal ellarum rajakkal"
If u guys, get a chance, pls listen to his debate.
From: FANOFIR (@ 129.107.27.47) on: Mon Dec 15 15:27:02 EST 1997

I liked his first album "Roja." There you could clearly see the difference. When IR came to music
world, there was a noticable change in music. The same with ARR, when he was introduced. Everyone was saying that he was an another IR. But then he changed his style to "Steal & modify" and "cut & paste."
I listed to one "Paddimanram" by Thinndukal Liyoni. He showed at least ten example where ARR
cheated the audians. For ex, the song, "Pennalla pennalla uthappo, sivanthan kannanga" is copied from IR's "Pesum manimithu rojakkal pillaikal ellarum rajakkal"
If u guys, get a chance, pls listen to his debate.
From: Kanthi Iyer (@ proxy.pcs.bls.com) on: Fri Dec 19 12:44:14 EST 1997

Hello
I just wanted to put in my thoughts abt ARR 'lifting' tunes from the West. I think we are only considering audience to whon all the western bands are familiar. There are millions of others in India to whom Gloria Estefan and African Drums may not mean anything. All they care abt is the novelty in the tune and music and I think ARR has done a wonderful job with that and that is why he's so popular. Sure, some of his tunes may be lifts, but they are blended very nicely to appeal to the Indian audience well. I think ARR has made a significant contribution to TFM and he deserves commendation and recognition.
From: Mukundan (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Fri Dec 19 19:04:43 EST 1997

Hi guys,

Kanthi Iyer
To cateogorize such direct inspirations as composing is what is really bothering every
one. As far as the 'blend' there is not much
done there!

Everyone
"Which is why it takes some more
time for us to grasp it - It is a different kind
of music coming from some random part of the world. You keep listening to it, attracted because
of the curiosity that it is different and try to
make sense out of it."

To give some examples "The first time I listened
to Rukmani Rukmani in Roja I felt it was completely disharmonious - I hated it. But I
inadvertently heard it a few times - I didnt find
it so disharmonius as I initially thought."

One explanation I can give for this is my musical
perception was not geared towards listening to
harmony of some kizhavi voices along with reasonably trained voices. As I got to listen to
it more and more I got trained.

It is not neccessary that it should happen with
everyone. Some people are able to appreciate things immediately.

It is happened with IR's music too. It took a few
times for me to appreciate "Thendral Vanthu Theendum pothu". Now I get emotional when I hear it. I thought "Rajanodu Rani" is like an ordinary
song until I concentrated on interludes and the background music for that song. I was simply blown away !!.

Try this. For guys who might be thinking "antha
nilaava thaan" is a just a good song, shift your
focus to western classical and listen to the starting music piece. It is simply out of the
world!!!!! That is originality we people have been
spoilt with. Anything less seems not so great!!

Mukund
From: Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Mon Dec 22 13:51:27 EST 1997

Hi guys,

I withdraw my statement - "no blending is being done". I got carried away!! There is blending done
with a lot of songs. But there are direct ones too !!

Thanks
Mukund
From: Bhaskar (@ dutyfree.proxy.lucent.com) on: Mon Dec 22 19:12:58 EST 1997

Ooops!! indha topic ivvalavu naal paarkave illai :) very interesting discussions :)

This "repetitive hearing" phenomenon has happened to me many times both with IR and ARR.

Recently song from IR En veettu jannal kambi en paarkkura ila nenja thottu thottu nee thakkura, kannale pesadhe kaiyodu pesu, ?? poonghattha veesu I listened once when I bought the cassette did not make any impression at that time, when I went to Bangalore, heard it on SUN TV many times and I started to appreciate the song. Now the song is really excellent.

I had the same feeling toward Oru naal andha oru naal song from Devadhai music by IR.
From: srikanth (@ 120.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Sun Dec 28 21:39:18 EST 1997

Hi
This site contains more Raja fans not accepting the fact that AR managed to move IR with one song.
"china china Aasai"
Then came chiku buku rail", Raja met his Waterloo.
I am a great fan of Raja , but the fact remains the same. Raja did the same to MSV...

Days Change,Trend Change, People go and come
dont hate AR he has raised Indian Music to International Heights.

Accept the Fact, dont compare him with Raja.
It pulls both of them down.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Sun Dec 28 23:47:13 EST 1997

raja has not and will not ever meet his waterloo
because of A.R. rahman.in fact some of his best songs which include 'ennulle enulee' from valli and 'ennai thalaata varuvaala' from kadalukku mariyadhai came after ARR came into the scene.but it seems to me that ARR would meet his waterloo before raja decides to call it a day.he has already been reduced to doing just under 5 films a year with more than half the songs being utter trash.
in that way i would say that deva has been the most successful in recent times irrespective of the fact that he does a perfect
copier job.so IR can be compared to bhishma.he can quit only if he wants to .
vijay
From: AthiNarayanan (@ pm181-03.dialip.mich.net) on: Mon Dec 29 00:16:42 EST 1997

I think ARR gets inspiration from IR(eventhough he wouldn't admit that) in talking to press people also.ARR wants to be shy and talks as though everything is becos of god.The reality is the hype and the excessive marketing which can't carry him too far.This marketing for his trend of lousy songs have helped more weeds like Deva,Sirpi to succeed just by imitating him and churning out junks and the eventual losers are tamil people who get to listen to lots of this junk stuff.1997 has been good in the sense that 5-6 Raja movies have been released and we are getting to see some vintage stuff again.I think Raja is like Bhishma nobody can outwit him in terms of speed and quality.

Athi
From: srikanth (@ 83.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Mon Dec 29 18:42:14 EST 1997

Hi ,
IF AR IS INSPIRED FROM IR -- IR got his inspiration from MSV,

Facts are to be accepted, dont compare AR/IR/MSVThere are many songs that sound similar,
Eg :
ENGke Nan Kandane anarkili --->
Same as Kalelam Manika kalaguma..

take the best from them...don't compare their talents.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.238) on: Tue Dec 30 00:47:04 EST 1997

yeah, IR might have been inspired from MSV though iam not 100% sure about this.but whatever it is he
has openly talked about GK venkatesh,MSV and praised them and praised GKV as his guru who taught him many things.but our man ARR after copying beat by beat from dr.alban's album for mukkala muqabala gives statements like 'i have not copied.it might have been that both of us were inspired by the same rhythm or coincidence'bla bla bla.if it is just 1 time it can be called coincidence.but if it happens many times from gloria estefan,paul young etc. can it
still be called coincidence.
ARR inspiration from old time MD's(think it is GR)
kuchi kuchi rakamma-senthamizh thenmozhiyal
if u play the lines 'parukida thalaikunival' from the old song
and 'pombalaikku then pudikkum' from the new song
in the synth u'll find 100% similiarity.now what u call that?
vijay
From: Kiran (@ 206.217.81.242) on: Tue Dec 30 01:58:26 EST 1997

To Vijay:
Grow up, kid!!!

The way you are talking, tells me you have no idea about what a beat is. Therefore, I don't think you have any knowledge about musiceither.Consequently, I do not think that your opinion is worth considering.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.238) on: Tue Dec 30 03:50:22 EST 1997

i had read in some magazine interview some time back that dr.alban's album
which was quite popular had songs with variety of beats and that ARR had used them.so that's what
i meant when i said ARR copied beat by beat from the album and had given mukkala as an example.if i was not clear(i might have missed some words while typing),please pardon me.mr. kiran , if u are not able to control your emotions then please keep away from lively and healthy discussions like these.
vijay
From: Gokul (@ p1.echostar.com) on: Tue Dec 30 13:26:38 EST 1997

Kiran,Vijay

ARR had said Alban had some beat loops which
can be used by anyone without any copyright problems. He had used once such loop for Mukkabla.

Probably it is ARR who has to grow up and not Vijay!
From: ice (@ tsk-10-174.tm.net.my) on: Thu Jan 1 12:42:18 EST 1998

ARR grow up....Hahaha!Maybe people who said that should grow up!
His music is too great for his young age .Maybe people are envy of this.People(especially IR fans)
do accept this:IR time was in the late 80s.Now its ARR's time.Just sit andlisten to what this very humble man has to offer.

ARR has brought so much improvement to TFM and the whole Indian music scene since his arrival and yet there are Tamil people who criticize him for what he has done.SHAME ON YOURSELVES! What better has IR done than making more Tamil youths seeking more modern tunes in English and Hindi.ARR has reversed this.
From: Rex (@ float-b.ise.ufl.edu) on: Thu Jan 1 13:48:25 EST 1998

As a hard core fan of Isaignani Ilayaraaja,
I do hear to ARR's tunes too. ARR does give good
songs and tunes. But are they fitting the situations
for which those songs are composed? NEVER!!

Situationskku thagundha mAAthiri music pOda
theriyAAtha oru manusharai eppadi ayya Music
Directornnu otthukka mudiyum sollunga?

There can be only one MD, who can create BGM and
songs to suit the situations. It is none other
than Isaignani Ilayaraaja.(Kadolara Kavithaigal,
Muthal Mariyathai, Guna, Ithayam, Mahanadhi, etc,
etc,etc,etc,etc.....)

It is this trait of his that makes him all the more
great than any of his contemporaries.

Summa digital technology ai kayyil vaithukondu,
artificial sounds kodupadhil, enna thiramai?

I think this is what make ARR averse to many of
the fans in the Web.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.238) on: Thu Jan 1 16:16:08 EST 1998

MD's real talent lies in composing BGM for the films.comparison should'nt be made based on songs alone.in this aspect ilayaraja has outscored rahman completely.also in terms of creativity rahman lags behind.as i have said before within 5 years of his arrival rahman does very few films per year and some of the songs sound very similiar to western tunes.
whereas IR at his peak did about 30 films a year.
according to an article in frontline the seven songs of chinnathambi were composed in less than 25 minutes and all of them were superhits.
ARR takes a few weeks to compore songs and this has even irritated some directors like KB.
i don't give a damn whether ARR has made his music popular in the north or elsewhere.making songs sound like gloria estefan's or paul young's numbers and then selling it all over india is a cheap trick.i agree that his music might have a wider audience but the music that has depth,penetration and true south indian flavour is raja's.
since western songs are nowadays listened to by
youngsters all over india this might be one reason why people (younsters) might listen to rahman's music.
but rahman's music has never interested older people.as i have said his music is like fast food eat , enjoy and then forget immediately.
does anyone give a damn about chikku bukku rail
after just 3 years?no?his music would be forgotten soon .
can i say since nerukku ner has topped all charts
and deva has max. films per year ,so deva is a better music composer than IR? it would be ridiculous.likewise IR can never be compared with ARR .we have to wait and see for perhaps 15 years or so to see if rahman's 'creativity' is as good as that of today's IR. as for international appreciation raja has done concerts in france and london in his younger days and has been appreciated .big composers like scott have been amazed at raja's composing ability.he was honored by the arizona state university and was made the mayor for one day.hence IR has received international recognition well before ARR.
vijay
vijay
From: bs (@ www1.access.bt.com) on: Mon Jan 12 14:57:40 EST 1998

May be that ARR can go back to his good - old
days as playing keyboard for IR. Then he will come to know what a "song" is.. He can be a good key
board artist as he is adept at lifting tunes by
playing (messing!!!) around Western songs..
(can be called coincident inspirations..)
From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Tue Jan 20 00:34:05 EST 1998

Nanbarhale,

My view point about this topic:

I am strong fan of IR and like few albums of ARR:
Roja, Thiruda^2, Gentle Man. Duet.

+ve things of ARR:
------------------

1) Has good sense of rhythm. His rhythms are
always complicated.

2) He has really good sense of sound engineering.
Recording and mixing quality improved
tremndously after he has come to TFM.

3) He is trying to give variety.

-ve things of ARR:
------------------

1) Very less creativity in tunes. Almost tending to ZERO.

2) He repeats lot of his own tunes and as others
say lifts from albums.

3) Media hype: The raise is too steep to be
healthy, which
increases expectations of the audience and
he is not able to keep it up.

4) Prefers catchy tunes and tries out un-usual
voices.

5) Trying to maintain the same monotonous style.
He calls that his style. uh!!

I feel dEva is doing better in terms of numbers
and hits though he also doing the copying business.

Moral: Don't compare ARR with IR. U will hate
ARR becos of expectations.
Malaiyaiyum..maduvayum..No! No!!!

Compare him with others.

Anbudan
mannAru
From: Raja Mahadevan (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Wed Jan 21 15:35:45 EST 1998

This may be repetitive, I was studying in Madras when iIlayaraja burst into the scene. We used to argue whether IR could even come close to MSV-TKR . I was young and supported IR even though I loved MSV-TKR classics. Then MSV started declining and IR blasted out. This happened with IR and ARR. ARR has also come out with greats like Netru Illadha Maatram from Pudhiya Mugam, Anjali anjali from Duet. He has really popularised Tamil Music nationally. He has produced music which is well produced ( recording part of it..)
-Raja
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-127-159.bellatlantic.net) on: Wed Jan 21 17:45:03 EST 1998

Great news, ARR is more talented than IR because he has composed "Netru Illatha" and "Anajali Anjali".
Gentlemen, IR produced 200 films and 1000 songs with more than 750 hit songs in his First 5 years. I am really surprised to ARR fans talking like anything quoting one or two songs.

Ungalaich cholli kutramillai, Freedom Vaangi thantha Ganthiji yaiye Suttu Konna Nadu Idhu. Ilayaraja Emmaththiram!!!

IR fans, A request, You can defend Raja in a "VAADHAM". It is not wise if you defend Raja in a "VITHANDAVAATHAM".
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Wed Jan 21 22:10:53 EST 1998

SVageeswaran

It took you such a long time to realise this? Anyway, better late than never.
From: Raja Mahadevan (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Thu Jan 22 11:20:45 EST 1998

Svageeswaran,

It was not my intention to be critical of IR. I wasn't trying to compare IR and ARR either.

- Raja Mahadevan
From: AIR (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Fri Jan 23 07:24:05 EST 1998

SathyaV:
What Raja Mahadevan trying to say was that ARR
is really talented and has given two examples.

And I don't agree with your numbers that 750
hit songs in 5 years - that is one hit song for
every 3 days (actually 2.25)!!!
NO IR didn't give that many hits - I would
agree that IR has given 1000 hits in his whole
20+ years career.

IR siRantha MDthAn - there is NO doubt about it.
BUT atharkAga yEn ARRaik kurai sollanum - endru
enakku puriyalai!!!!

ARR has his own style and with that he has
captivated the makkaL - and doing his business
in his own way in his own pace. I don't think
ARR is concerned about giving most number of
songs instead he wants to give less number of
QUALITY songs - I think he is doing a very
good job on that.
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Fri Jan 23 08:54:27 EST 1998

Bones: kannukku evvaLavu kuLirchiyA irukku theriyumA ippadi oru sane posting padikka. :). engE pOi irundheenga ivvaLAvu naaLA?
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-126-175.bellatlantic.net) on: Fri Jan 23 12:56:26 EST 1998

My intention is not to tell that ARR is not talented. My emphasis is that any comparison against IR against any Music Directoe is absurd and I argue in that sense. I have opened a separate thread to discuss why Raja is uncomparable. Never I say that ARR is not talented. The debate arises only when people say ARR is more talented than IR. To defend ARR people give a few songs and say he is better. It is very difficult to completely describe IR's talents as a lay man. I have tried my best in that thread.
From: Himanshu (@ bangalore.cs.berkeley.edu) on: Sat Jan 24 17:50:36 EST 1998

I agree with SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN completely.
From: DrKevorkian (@ spider-ti072.proxy.aol.com) on: Fri Jan 29 21:05:03 EST 1999

Revive ...

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