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SPB and TMS - Compare and Contrast

Topic started by rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on Tue Mar 16 12:39:41 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I had mentioned very briefly mentioned about TMS's talents (and some deficiencies thereof strictly IMO) in another thread. Obviously, the two kings of TFMs deserve at least a separate thread for discussion, instead of merely being a 'distraction' in some other thread.

My request to the participants is:
Please try to be objective in assessing their qualities. Let us explore difference in background, cultural situation at the time of their prime, acting style of the principal heroes, training etc. Let us not take the easy path of 'mere mudslinging' on the artists or the DF participants. Believe me, if and when I have done it, I have not been proud of it!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-to022.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Mar 18 01:08:33 EST 1999
  
  I consider the following aspects as a gauge for comparing the two.
  
  1. Voice culture
  2. pitch synchronization
  3. ability to perform elements of melody making(carnatic singing)
  a) sangathis
  b) rAga AlAbanai
  c) swaram singing
  d) neraval presentations
  4. voice modulation to express
  a) upbeat numbers
  b) pathos
  c) haunting melodies
  
  5. voice gliding and yodeling
  
  1 TMS's voice is very linear having kinda radical origin having a natural kattai that suits higher octave singing. Whenever he was asked to render for low-pitched numbers his nasal usage was more pronounced. This is what he exactly did to suit Sivaji (having radical origins) and MGR (nasal usage). Whether it suited the actors really or not is a different issue! I think TMS adopted a style himself whenever he sang for these actors there by creating a virtual image of these matinee
  idols in peoples mind.
  
  I don't know what was TMS first song for MGR, but i can go as far back as 'yErik karai mElE' in which his nasal singing is more conspicuous. But i have observed in many songs where TMS has struggled to maintain this modulation and there are subtle signs of inconsistencies in some numbers. For example in the number 'poo mazhai thoovi vasanthangaL vAzhtha oorvalam nadakkindrathu'. He sways between the styles where he starts with nasal singing and switches to sivaji style 'kachchEri mELangaL vEdikkai vANangaL' stemming from the root and then back to a nasal delivery for 'oorengum koNdAttamAm'. Then a real mix of these in rendering 'thOzhi aththAnai pArendru unaikkiLLa mugam nAnaththil senthoora niRam koLLa' .
  
  2. Pitch synchronization
  TMS's low profile numbers are more nasal oriented . 'pArvai ondrE pOthumE pallAyiram sol vEndumA', 'OrAyiram pArvaiyilE un kAthalai nAnaRivEn'. But for the number 'yArantha nilavu' he has struggled to keep his nasal usage down and has succeeded to a greater extent!
  
  3a) As for as my knowledge goes, TMS has proficiency in performing sangathis. He has the ability to tweak the melody slightly and present different versions whenever required. I will come back with examples for this later.
  3b) The initial piece of 'pAttum nAnE bhAvamum nAnE' has a small piece of this.
  3c) He goes very close with his counterpart sirgazhi in the song 'vendriduvEn entha nAttaiyum nAthaththAl vendriduvEn' . One must observe the fluency with which he delivers the swarams. And also there is not an equivalent for the song 'muththai thiru' (arunagirinAthar) which is sung in a staccato manner.
  3d) I don't consider this as an extraordinary capability of a singer but if it there is a carnatic based song which required neraval presentation of pallavi , i think he did it.
  
  4a) I remember the song 'oru peNNai pArthu nilavai pArthEn nilavil oLiyillai' in which TMS expresses more powerfully for MGR without giving his due stress on voice modulation to suit his voice (ie the virtual image!). Another number 'pAduvOr pAdinAl Ada thOndrum' he has excelled once again with his fluent expression. He shows the same fluency when he sings such numbers for Sivaji also in 'kAthal malar koottam ondru veethi vazhi pOgum endru yArO sonnAr'. One must observe the way he renders 'Adai konjam asainthAl un Asai konjam kalanthAl nAn aNaipEn kai koduppEn unvizhiyAlE varamthA' .
  4b) There are number of songs of sivaji which fall into this category. But i will take a MGR number first. In the song 'tharaimEl pirakka vaithAn engalai thaNNeeril mithakka vaithAn', his expressions are just excellent. He glides his voice (nasal for MGR) slightly to add more melancholic effect especially when he delivers 'uravai koduthavan angE.........' and 'uyirai koduppar ingE.......'. In the song 'un kaNNil neer vazhinthAl en nenjil uthiram kottuthadi', he has overly expressed the emotions and a nice song looked very sophisticated there. Towards the mid-70's , i think both TMS and Sivaji were getting carried away with this!
  4c) Apart from the other solo melodies that have been mentioned already, he has quite a few duets which are melodious tunes. In most of them , i find the female singer always has an edge over TMS and were able to express themselves more fluently than TMS. In songs like 'ponnezhil poothathu puthuvAnil ', 'antha sivakami maganidam sEthi solladi' , PS topples. Even in the song 'kAthalin pon veethiyil' with SJ from pookkAri , SJ does much better in bringing the melody.
  
  I will come back with voice gliding , yodeling and the analysis of SPB later.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com) on: Thu Mar 18 10:03:56 EST 1999
  
  Sriram,
  
  THANK YOU. This is exactly the kind of discussion which I wanted and you have provided an excellent foundation. I will just read on and appreciate the views provided here.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Thu Mar 18 11:00:55 EST 1999
  
  sriamL,
  Nice analysis.Without getting into the details,I had one big kurai with TMS.He tends to overdo things.Guess subtelety is'nt his fort.HE could have controlled it a little bit better.TMS in particular(I suppose when he sings for Sivaji) has been untolerable, despite some good underlying melody.I might want to bring in "Eenga Nimaadhi","Kanna Neeyum Naanuma( Gauvaram?)".They were just as replusive as the protagnist(sivaji).
  SPB,thanks to IR, learned the naunces and has been an absolute wonder.There have been cases like "Vaii karayil" from paayanganl Mudivathilay,where I just detested his emotions.Am sure IR must have taken a slumber during recording.
  But in most parts SPB learnt to control or was held back and did'nt oveplay his act.
  TMS was simply superb in higher octaves and with his gifted thondai ,made some songs almost impossible to sing even in the bathroom.
  
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Thu Mar 18 11:29:37 EST 1999
  
  Anand,
  
  I guess you are talking about extreme emotions by TMS in songs like engEy nimmadhi, dhEvanEy ennaai paarungaL, neeyum naanumaa (especially fir Sivaji). I use maagaaLi kezhangu as a simile. Either you hate it or love it. There is almost no middle of the road. For the 'same reasons' why, say somebody like Karthi, loves these songs, you might dislike it.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Mar 18 11:47:21 EST 1999
  
  "But in most parts SPB learnt to control or was held back and did'nt oveplay his act. "
  
  Anand: I am inclined to think that it was Raja's kadivalam that held SPB back. Just listen to his 'improvisations'(kallullo neeeeee. roopaameeeeey... etc) in live performances (or some of his songs under others' baton, especially some telugu ones)to see how blessed we were to have Raja at the helm..or our man might have 'improvised' some great tunes beyond recognition.
  
  Ah, there I go...now, that should win me some disapproval from people who haven't had occasion to express discontent at my posts before this- I mean I am sure rajaG and srinath are going to rip me apart for this .Hmm... this feels great :)
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Thu Mar 18 11:49:01 EST 1999
  
  rajaG,
  IMO, Bottomline the expression was loathable to say the least.
  It would be intresting to note,wether TMS was swayed by emotion or was it stressed by MSV.
  My bet would be MSV would'nt have taken it to this extreme.
  I do'nt expect Karthi or the likes to hold my view and definetly he has the right to go to the other extreme.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Thu Mar 18 11:49:16 EST 1999
  
  rajaG,
  IMO, Bottomline the expression was loathable to say the least.
  It would be intresting to note,wether TMS was swayed by emotion or was it stressed by MSV.
  My bet would be MSV would'nt have taken it to this extreme.
  I do'nt expect Karthi and the likes to hold my view and definetly he has the right to go to the other extreme.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com) on: Thu Mar 18 12:11:16 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  
  No, I'm just laughing out loud. Because KannullO nee roopamEy is by Hariharan (from Ninney peLLaaduthaa). I now know why you did'nt like SPB's non existent improvs in that song!!! BTW, did you know that SPB did not emote/express properly (when he sang for MSV, KVM, Sathyam, etc. etc.) until IR came onto the scene and 'taught' him the proper controls:-)))) innum enna ellaam, yaar yaarukku IR solli koduththaar. I'm just waiting with bated breath.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Mar 18 12:31:10 EST 1999
  
  rajaG: Granted but my point was about over-expressiveness.. I mean, That example was just a example...sort of my imagination of how SPB would have sung if he had sung it;) I couldnt remember any song off-hand and just quoted the first one that came to mind...Really, does that matter. Do you or do you not deny that SPB has this habit of adding extra "aaaa.."'s, "ee..ee"'s when he sings on stage. I dont remember any actual example but I do remember having watched (heard) him perform on stage and I can vouch that he clinically rips apart some wonderful tunes with butcherous improvisations. Same goes for some of his non-Raja songs ,with peers (in terms of chronology not status) of Raja. I should have researched more and come up with a valid example, I admit but I was in a hurry to make my point , u knw. I stand corrected but my point remains.
  
  As for seniors like MSV, obviously our man couldnt have done these improvsations on them. Tholaichiruppanga! Later, however, I remember one of MSV's 90's songs(yes, they do exist!) ..something like "Netriyil pottittu.." in one dravidan , where SPB gave the 'treatment' to MSV also:). But certainly, I believe Raja's presence made a difference to the effect of restraining SPB. As for other 'teachings' of Raja( and if you want ,rajaG also:)) , "samayam varum pothu" solvaen..;)
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Thu Mar 18 15:02:30 EST 1999
  
  Appaa Raj,
  
  Absolutely true. SPB improvises a lot in the live shows and many times they produce an effect which is lesser in quality than the original. But I think it is not because he does'nt know how to improvise beautifully. It is only because he has not spent the required amount of time to weed out the unwanted. I have wondered about how a man can sing 30,000+ songs and deliver a majority of them (under verious music directors) with wonderful expression and yet at the same time in a surprisingly large number of instances during live shows butchers the improvs for otherwise masterpiece songs. I think he does spur of the moment improv without planning ahead and it shows. His aayiram nilavE vaa in the album 'enadhu isai payaNam" is a classic infamous example.
  
  

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