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Dr.SPB , DR.KJY, M.Rafi & Kishore Kumar, who is the greatest out of these?

Topic started by Udit naryan, harihara & Kumar sanu (@ 195.92.67.65) on Fri Jan 10 12:56:43 EST 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know it is a touch one, it is very close between Rafi & SPB, my opinion is as follows

1) SPB
2) Rafi
3) KJY
4) KK

how about yours??

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Tue Jan 14 09:39:29 EST 2003
  
  ST
  
  >>For all the crap u people put up, there is hardly any instance where song of KK/Rafi redone by others has lived up to anywhere near the original.
  >SPB "lacks" sophistication, i said he lacked it initially<<
  
  of course man, every damn singer, y every one in the world lacks everything initially, but by experience they improve, just like how we all developed in to fully grown humans from being infants!
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Tue Jan 14 09:40:10 EST 2003
  
  ST
  
  >>For all the crap u people put up, there is hardly any instance where song of KK/Rafi redone by others has lived up to anywhere near the original.
  <<
  
  Ok, let's see how original it would sound, had rafi/KK sang Shangaraparanam/ Sindhu bharavai
  
  tell me a song which is faster than "Satham illatha thanimai keeten" by SPB from the film amarkalam, that rafi/kk had rendered?
  
  
  
• From: meena maatikitta.. (@ 12.162.224.5) on: Tue Jan 14 11:49:43 EST 2003
  
  Raghu,
  Eena meena tikka..
  
  
• From: x (@ 209.47.143.226) on: Tue Jan 14 13:22:06 EST 2003
  
  eena meena tikka is not even close.
  It's just one line kk goes fast (or was it rafi, I don't remember)
  
  Satham illatha song is a 4 minute song with no break -- listen to it. Infact there is no editing or technical gimicks in this song bcos SPB has sung this song many times on the stage too.
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 165.89.84.5) on: Tue Jan 14 13:32:09 EST 2003
  
  how about including Hariharan in this discussion (to add more spice to the topic). In my opinion, he is comparable easily to these four singers without a doubt.
  
  
• From: Ali (@ 24.102.31.216) on: Tue Jan 14 18:13:51 EST 2003
  
  First of all the opinions of ST are not at all lopsided, he has been exposed to many forms of music that most others here have not and his statements are absolutely true. He is right by saying that Rafi started raw and then he gave songs that have not been bettered by anyone whereas you feel SPB could have sung his earlier songs better the what he had originally.
  
  Raghu,
  
  You yourself don't even know the amount of years Rafi/KK have been around and you claim to
  know about them and then make comments that are totally erronous and not even logical.
  Rafi started his career in 1944 and he went into another world in 1980. For your information
  that is 36 years of playback singing. Kishore Kumar started singing around the time he was
  making his own movies which is during the 50's and that too only part time. He was on and off
  in the 60's in which he only agreed to sing for SDB and no one else which is why you will find
  that in the 60's movies of SDB i.e Teen Devian, Jewel Thief, Guide etc. there is either 1 or
  more KK songs along with the other Rafi songs. When Aradhna happened it was around 1969 and from
  around that time until KK's death in 1987 he chose to be a full-time playback singer. So as you can see, if you're talking about experience then KK has sung for around 25 years or may be more. I mean experience as in he was exposed to the microphone at a time way before he decided to be a full-time singer. He definetely did not have the experience Rafi had or the talent that Rafi had but with the backing of SDB in giving him choice songs, and his own movie songs, he had some experience in singing before he went full-time. And if you're talking about experience, let me also talk about knowledge in that aspect as well which you receive as a result of experience. Lataji has said that Rafi had such a knowledge of ragas that he could change a song if he wanted to. Leave aside his singing abilities and just think about this aspect. In his concert in 1979, when he sung 'O duniya ke rakhawale' toards the end of the song when he sung the lines 'mehle udaas' he changes the whole tune and whole structure of the song and sings from a different sur and taal which he made up himself. Now tell me can SPB do this.......mind you this is not improvisation.
  Improvisation is when you add different effects or different antics to the song i.e high alaap, low alaap etc, what I am talking about is changing the basic structure of the song. If there is one singer who I feel can attempt in doing this, it is KJY and definetley not SPB. SPB is limited to only the playback arena as Raghu you oh so many a times have pointed out !!.
  
  Another point I would like to make relating to RDB is that even after Aradhna happened, he didn't become a star overnight. Anyone believing RDB brought himself up at the start of his career should refine your facts because without Rafi he could not have made a name for himself. Check this : Chote Nawab, Teesri Manzil, Pyar Ka Mausam, Caravan, The Train, Mela, Abhilasha, Pyar Ki Kahani etc. are just a few of the movies which made RDB a household name and which were all Rafi-based scores which proves that Rafi brought RDB to the top. Rafi infact brought many MD's to glory such as LP, KA, etc because of his talent. If an MD becomes successful without the need of a lead singer to sing his compositions it does not mean that the MD is more talented than the other MD's who need a lead singer to sing their compositions. It just means that the MD chose to be different. Take for example O.P. Naayar who said he would become successful without Lata and he did just that. It doesn't mean SJ or SDB or others who swore by Lata are less talented than him. It just means that he didn't want Lata to sing his songs. But if Lata had sung his songs, then they certainly would have been different and would have created a different impact as opposed to the other female singers he used because of Lata's talent. So because of Rafi's talent, the songs he sang which brought MD's like LP, KA up were because he sang them. The same impact created would not have been there if another singer with less talent had sung them like a Manna Dey or KK. Surely the songs would have been excellent and teh MD's successful but not with the same impact had Rafi sung them. Rafi and Lata brought many MD's up and can the same be said about SPB ??. SPB sung many songs for MD's and brought their creations to glory but these MD's would have been successful anyways because of their songs regardless of wether or not SPB sung them. It's not because they're more talented than LP or KA etc. that they do not need a lead singer, it's just because the impact created would have been the same if another singer had sung them. Had another singer like Rafi sung them, they would be different and become on a higher level. Because of Rafi and Lata's talent, the effect created brought more wonders to the MD's and therefore these MD's rose higher. So in saying all this MD's such as LP, KA etc. would have risen because of their talent but not with the same effect if their songs were not sung by Rafi or Lata. That is why critics say Rafi and Lata brought MD's up.
  
  And sundaresan, 'Shankara....' as you pointed out is definetely not as hard a song as 'O duniya ke rakhwale' is. The crescendo in both the songs are totally different to suit different ranges. The crescendo is Shankara was made to suit the range SPB has and the crescendo in 'O duniya...' was made to suit the wide range which Rafi had. You should go and hear the ending part of 'O duniya ke rakhwale' in the concert version and then you will realise why SPB said "impossible".
  
  I as well as you ST do not understand why people don't take comments by other artists into consideration that much. If SPB, KJY
  and many many others say Rafi is the ultimate, they have more musical knowledge than us to judge. When almost every artsist says
  that Lata is the ultimate, are we to disagree with them ??. If we have doubts we should go out and hear her songs as to why artists
  are calling her the gretest ever. Same with Rafi. People here call this humility which it is absolutely crazy. If it was humility then
  no artist should make any comment on any artist because everyone will be humble and down to earth then. It doesn't make sense to call
  it humility at all. As sundaresan pointed out about Naushad calling SPB one of the greatest ever, does sundaresan take this as humbleness or
  as a fact....i'm sure he regards it as a fact. When artists say SPB is the greatest, people here say he is true and its not humility but when
  SPB and KJY and many others mention that Rafi is the greatest, they say it is humility. What are these double standards ??
  
  Here is an excerpt form an interview IR gave that someone posted on this forum :
  
  Q: ungaLai kavarndha paadagar yaar?
  
  IR: Rafi, Jesudhoss, Balu endraalum "Rafi" Rafithaan.
  
  You see.....the Genius IR himself is saying "Rafi is still Rafi". Now do you want to disagree with the maestro himself who used SPB all those years
  and who along with SPB agrees Rafi is the ultimate !!. People who know about music know Rafi is the ultimate....you can argue all you want.
  
  The link to the interview is :
  http://www.newtfmpage.com/forum/29460.23:54:13.html
  
  Sundaresan,
  
  Rafi did not lose his timbre in the late 70's. Infact he was on such a high and recording spree that the ploy of the media in bringing the "KK wave" over him was looking as if it never existed. He was singing for the new generation of actors during that period and sounded as
  younger as ever. Now if he had lost a good portion of his voice do you think he would have recorded more songs than KK did in that
  period from 76-80 ??. Please refine your facts before posting them.
  
  >>>SPB's ability to modulate, sing Brikkas and gamakas with greatest ease is unparallel.
  In expressing feelings or emote or laugh in a song SPB is as good as Rafi was.
  
  Modualate ??. Are you saying SPB could match every actor's voice, nuance and ability ??. Whoa !, you must have more clearer ears than us !!. There is no way in which SPB could modulate for every actor he sang for. Rafi could match any actor inside and out and that is living proof. Every artist makes it a point to
  mention that this was one talent that no other singer except Rafi had that when you listen to a song of his you can see what actor it is. His singing for SK was totally different from Dharmendra, which was totally different
  from DK and totally different from others. In fact one person put it aptly : "Rafi would sound more like Shashi Kapoor then Shashi Kapoor himself"
  
  Rafi was the only one who could shift notes and sing these brigas and gamakas the most effectivley and most easily because
  of his tremendous range. In expressing feelings SPB said he used to feel jealous of Rafi that he could pour such emotion into the lyrics of a song that it would surprass the actor's ability to emote it on screen. SPB's sister Sailaja also said she hasn't seen such tonal expression from any other singer yet other than Rafi. One thing is voice. Rafi's voice is so open and not restricted unlike other singers that you feel in another world. This is why KJY said that Rafi's voice makes you feel comfortable over different ranges as opposed to others.
  There is so much proof of different aspects of Rafi's singing from many others that if you want to still argue, you can all you want. Raghu please be my guest and call this all humility as i know you very well will.......because you think it is when it is absolutely not.
  
  Raghu,
  
  There are many more faster songs by Rafi then the one you have mentioned, "Satham illatha thanimai keeten". I am listing two out of the
  hundreds which are faster than the above. If you want more, just ask me :
  (song, movie)
  Chera Tera Allah Allah - Tum Haseen Main Jawan (this song is way faster then the above mentioned and requires a high range along with energy to render it)
  Ek bechara - Waris (very fast song as well)
  
  SPB has never sung the type of songs Rafi sung for Shammi Kapoor. SK songs were wild in their nature, emoton-filled, crazy, berserk songs in which only a versatile singer such as Rafi could sing (and that too he matched his voice). Same with Jeetendra songs or other actors like Joy Mukherji etc. That is why you can see SPB could not do justice to "Aaja Aaja" when he renders it. ST may be you have more to say on this.
  
  When Rafi goes berserk in the song "Aaja Aaja" it is meant to be sung that way and not in shruti or control. SPB sung it without going berserk and in
  a way which it is not supposed to be sung in. Don't say he shows shruti or contol for a song which is not meant to be sung in a controlled voice.
  
  I read your other post on another page and you seem to define ruling the industry in having one or two songs in an album. Just because SPB has a few songs in albums out these days does not mean he is ruling the industry. Ruling is defined as having the majority amount of songs recorded. These days it is others who take that title and not SPB. SPB was ruling in the 80's and early 90's. SPB is about the same age as Rafi was when Rafi passed away and Rafi was still a force to reckon with around that age whereas today SPB is not as much a force as he used to be at the same age.
  On other matters, it can even hold true that 'Ek Duje Ke Liye' would probably have happened in Rafi's voice if he had not passed away since LP were so demoralized after his death that they were looking to compose "Rafi" again. It would make pure sense to put the top-selling voice of Rafi on a still struggling Kamal Hasaan trying to find his way into bollywood. Now what wonders that would be !!.
  
  OISG,
  
  Maybe you are not aware, but most of the songs in which Rafi/KK sang were based on Urdu and not Hindi. Urdu is more poetic and more emotion-filled
  which is why you will find a majority of Urdu words in Hindi songs. People just put a label on urdu and call it hindi when it comes to songs.
  So please don't talk about Hindi and mix Urdu with that too because the urdu language has such a long and rich culture as compared to other
  indian languages. The language of Urdu brought out one of the foremost forms of singing which is known as the "Ghazal" and which other languages
  have been trying to incorporate into their music for a very long time now. The ghazal is the highest form of expression one can portray when he/she wants to let out their emotions. Hindi also has a long history for you to be commenting about it in such a way.
  
  Singing in hind/urdu requires more breath control which is why you will find many artists say it is beneficial to learn hindustani music because it improves breath control. Singing in hindi/urdu is harder than SI languages in terms of breath control which is why SPB cannot do justice to Rafi's songs on stage because he doesn't have the breath control required. He may make you fall in love with his SI songs but the same cannot be said when he sings Rafi's or KK's songs on stage. You say imagine Rafi/KK singing in SI languages, well I bet they could have if they concentrated more on it because if they could sing effectively in hindi/urdu which is harder, then what would make it so difficult to sing in SI languages when it is less difficult in terms of breath control. Don't misunderstand me, I am saying all this in the context of breath control that words in hindi/urdu take up more breathing room than SI language words.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: OISG (@ 193.188.97.152) on: Wed Jan 15 00:28:58 EST 2003
  
  Ali
  
  That was a good response.But is breath control the only benchmark for good singing?Every music has its strength.For eg,carnatic music which has more mathematics involved you end up slipping the raga by one additional note.Take the case of Magadhi-Valaji -Malayamarutham and Chakravaham.Each one has a distinct flavour and can t fool around by addiing anya swaras.It has got a strong theory support and need absolute clarity.The concept of Vivadi is something unique which Hindutani music could not get till date...Apart from Jog can you tell me ragas with R3 or N3 sung frequently like CM s Varali,Naatai,Hamsanadham.
  
  Hindi/Urudu have lot of things in common and particularly the Indian Urudu is more closer to Hindi.
  
  Tamil is the oldest of the dravidian languages and other SI languages evolved from Tamil.But over centuries the brnched-outlanguages have developed a unique flavour in terms of literature , dialect etc.But Hindi is a language of recent origin in comparison.So for a Tamil to understand Telugu is more difficult than the Hindi-Urudu combo.
  
  SPB has excelled in Telugu his mother tongue,Tamil the language which horned his skills,Kannada and finally put his stamp on Hindi with a national award.I think no other Indian male singer could manage that.KK/Rafi would have become clowns like Udit Narayan had they tried.Singing "Allu Allu" et all...
  
  Singing in tamil needs a more fluent tongue movement than other languages which no northie can manage.But you see atleast 6-7 peoplw with Tamil as their mother tongue singing/sung in Hindi movies in the top bracket.Men like Shankar and Hariharan could get back to Tamil and move smoothly to Telugu because the basic Tamil tongue never lets one down.
  
  Hindi actors ,generally wooden faced,could not match SPB on screen.Take for eg Salman for whom SPB did most of his songs.SPB could bring the emotins of a young lover in his voice even in a song with inane lyrics and scores over his co singers like Udhas,Sanu.I am talking about "Jeeye tho jeeye" from Sajan.But in the end wht you see on screen is a patheic 6-pack Salman Khan standing like a dead-wood with a constipated expression.
  
  Naushad for his "teri Payal Meri geet" came down to SPB for his classical song.Hindi music/Bollwood only can tolerate the likes of Sanu,Shabbir Kumar,Aziz,Babla etc...Here you need quality to sustain which Balau has in plenty.
  
  

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