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Advantages of composing prewritten lyrics

Topic started by Udhaya (@ 64.136.27.31) on Tue Aug 12 11:51:47 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

While listening to many old songs, the advantages of prewritten lyrics for composers and singers became evident. I will start with two examples and we can add more as we discover them.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 64.136.26.31) on: Wed Aug 13 12:03:05 EDT 2003
  
  MS,
  Excellent points, I'm very happy with the thread progressing in a purposeful direction. Perhaps later, we can share one of our collaborative pieces here or in the "amateur musicians" thread if people are interested.
  
  I want to mention some other classic examples of prewritten lyrics for songs where the composer and singers' creative embellishments are very obvious:
  -paalirukkum, pazhamirukkum, pasiyirukkaathu (just the way the beginning of the song is carried with assertive mm hmms is brilliant and gives the prose poem quality of the lines a lyrical quality)
  -ninnayae rathiyendru ninaikkiraenadi kannamma (one of the best KJY pieces ever. MSV goes nuts in this proper tribute to Barathi's lyrics)
  -neela nayanangalil oru neenda kanavu vandhadhu (I must thank SL for initiating me to the greatness of this song. Notice how unconventional a turn the song takes in the second line with, "adhan koala vadivangalil...vandhadho". This sandham is virtually impossible to be thought of before hand, says SL and I must agree. Another surprising turn in the song is the way the following lines end, "pachchai kal vaitha maanikka maalai" and "maayak kann kondu naan kanda virundhu"; the way maalai and virundhu are tweaked high instead of a lower course that our ears expect is magical)
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Wed Aug 13 12:33:40 EDT 2003
  
  Excellent writeup MS!
  
  As I was reading Srikanth's comment, I remembered
  a song in Vasantha Maaligai - Oru Kinnathai yaendhukiraen. It is an ultimate example of the
  musical flexibility on Lyrics and a showcase of
  KVM's tuning skills.
  
  In the first stanza, charanam, L.R.Eswari sings
  a drunken version of the charanam lines:
  Sorgam iruppadhu unmai enral
  Adhu pakkathil nirkattumae,
  Verum vetkangal odattumae
  
  The tune is thallaadal like a drunkard.
  
  Immediately TMS sings the same lyrics in a higher
  range in totally new tune, new style, with hiccups of a drunk.
  
  Same magic in second charanam. This time the female singer (T.K.Kala?) sings in a very
  traditional (homely) tune - qawaali style.
  Kattazhaganadhor karpanai raajiyam
  Katti mudindhadhada athil kattil amainthadada.
  
  Immediately TMS sings it in his macho style.
  
  THis is a lesson for composers. Notice that
  if you hear only TK Kala's lyric you will never
  even guess the subject of the song and when you
  hear the word Kattil you might even think it is a
  lullaby for a boy! See how the vallinams are
  softened in her rendering and emphasized in
  TMS rendering!
  
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Wed Aug 13 12:59:05 EDT 2003
  
  This song is a good example of how music can
  either emphasize lyrics or dullen it or hide it!!!! It can make you listen to the words afresh or make you not pay attention to the words at all.
  Or it can say something different from what the
  lyrics are conveying!!
  
  This is where the test of the composer is. First you learn to make a singable melody for a line. Then you learn how to make it catchy or interesting. But then you get into the new ground, you should learn how to make the tune not just melodic and catchy but also make it convey
  the emotional impact of the lyrics!! That is where a musicians job ends and a composers job begins. This is where Ragam has to take a side step and Bhavam has to be bold enough to side step it!
  
  Many Bharathiyar songs have been tuned by
  many composers in a spiritless but musical way. For instance, the use of Kummi tune to Senthamizh Nadenum podhinilae dulls the spirit of the lyrics!
  Contrast with Srikanths wonderful energetic tune for the same! Not to mention the even more energetic and spirited singing ;)
  
  Anytime new tune-makers came into popularity, it is because they found that the
  established practice is making emotion subservient to music and they went and broke the rules.
  
  For instance, in classical carnatic music, jumps like the MSV jumps Udhaya rights about, are discouraged because music is supposed to calm you down, not excite you. Viswanathan Ramamoorthy tunes broke the ground and used jumps. Same way Raja created Jumps and bumps in chandams and even in interlude arrangements to create dynamism and new emotions. It took sometime for us to get used to it. But when we got used to it, new doors of perception were opened for us.
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Wed Aug 13 13:05:13 EDT 2003
  
  And Kaakkai chiraginale by Srikanth, sung by Sujatha, is an excellent tune for the lyrics - definitely much better the the Bhajan version we have heard!!
  
  Sidestory: I was amazed by the atmosphere in the intro of the song and tried to figure out where he may have got the inspiration. Finally I have a guess!
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Wed Aug 13 13:25:23 EDT 2003
  
  rjay, talking of KMV, a MD who predominantly or always composed for lyrics, how about oruthi oruvanai ninaithuvittaal from Saradha..Its not often that we find lyrics in a Q&A format. Note how the tune for the words change depicting the various emotions.."thuyaram", "kaadhal" , "mounam" etc. When the singer sings "mounam" and stretches it he gives a hushed tone to it. When he sings "thuyaram" he lends a pathos effect to it while stretching the word. Of course the tune plays a part too, but this is a song that IMO doesnt need much orchestration to convey the respective moods. Just the lyrics, KVM's tune and PBS/PS's singing is enough to do it all.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Wed Aug 13 13:29:47 EDT 2003
  
  Thanks for reminding the example, Oruthi oruvanai is a nice example for how to compose a tune. See how the whole character of the melody is defined by the ending notes of each phrase and see how KVM choses which note to increase tension or resolve it. And see how he can go to so many lines before finally resolving the musical tension. You can make an exercise to compose a new tune to that lyric in, say, Madyamavati, and learn a lot.
  
  In a sense, Palirukkum is also a QA song.
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 192.147.58.6) on: Wed Aug 13 13:57:21 EDT 2003
  
  Idhu super thread.
  
  Udhaya vaazhga!
  Un kotram vaazhga!
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 192.147.58.6) on: Wed Aug 13 14:02:51 EDT 2003
  
  MS write-up Thiagaraja compositions are great. I have always thought that they should have done the same thing too.
  
  
  
• From: purv (@ 205.231.151.149) on: Thu Aug 14 05:54:07 EDT 2003
  
  When I start composing, this is exactly what I want; prewritten lyrics.
  
  
• From: Rajesh G (@ 167.202.196.72) on: Thu Aug 14 13:59:00 EDT 2003
  
  Fantastic thread by fantastic people ! TFM forum is blessed and so am I ! Keep going guys.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ ) on: Thu Aug 21 16:45:26 EDT 2003
  
  More than an year back, I had requested Udhaya to write lyrics for my tune in Sindhu Bhairavi called
  Once Before. He did an excellent job, and I got:
  
  Paadhi Raavil Thookkamilla Aekkamthaana En Vidhi
  Jannalora-p paarvai kaattum Venmathikkum En Gathi
  
  and so on.
  
  Here is a vocal rendering of these lyrics:
  
  http://www.geocities.com/rjaymidi/RJAYPadhiRavilSindhuBhairavi.mp3
  
  ****
  
  After listening to this, I tried to set a new tune to the lyrics! Here is my new tune:
  
  http://www.geocities.com/rjaymidi/RJAYPaadhiIravilNewAgeish.mp3
  
  Let me know what you guys think about the comparison - lyrics to tune vs tune to lyrics.
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Thu Aug 21 16:46:23 EDT 2003
  
  For the second version, I adjusted the lyrics little bit:
  
  Paadhi Iravil Thookamilla Aekkamthaana en vidhi
  Jannaloram Kannil Theriyum Venmathikkum en vidhi.
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Thu Aug 21 17:11:42 EDT 2003
  
  rjay :-) Incidentally, I took the same lyrics to set a tune of my own. I shall put it as an mp3 soon. As udhaya had suggested earlier we can do a scholastic comparison between the two interpretations just for curiosity. you already have two versions and that makes it 3 to work with :-) IMO, it would be a nice way to know how different people look at the lyrics and formulate sandhams.
  
  BTW, unga reNdu tunes um romba nalla irukku. I liked sindhubhairavi better. donno why :-)
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 64.136.26.31) on: Thu Aug 21 17:35:30 EDT 2003
  
  rjay,
  Thanks for taking the initiative to fulfill my request. I'm eagerly awaiting these tunes. I'm experiencing some problem accessing the geocities links.
  
  MS,
  Get your version up as well. 3 different versions, wow, I'm getting delirious.
  
  A reminder to the rest. Folks, I've asked these two to share their efforts for the sake of experimenting and analyzing the possibilities of preset tunes vs. preset lyrics. Please maintain the class we have achieved so far in this thread and don't pit the different versions, especially the composers against each other. Our purpose here is better than that. Let us strive to stay analytical and weigh all versions equally.
  
  Any artist putting up his/her work for scrutiny should be applauded, especially in this case where the temptation to compare and the opportunity for criticism is higher. I'm purposely treading cautiously here because I feel responsible for creating this potential "A vs. B" debate that this forum has seen one too many times.
  
  
• From: Dandanaka (@ 66.135.184.72) on: Thu Aug 21 21:47:57 EDT 2003
  
  RJay
  it says page not found when i try to access the links :((( was hoping to hear the songs
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Fri Aug 22 11:54:55 EDT 2003
  
  MS,
  
  Thanks for listening, looking forward to your version. I can also make more different tunes of that if that would illustrate better - or just as a peek into the workings of the tuner. (tuner?)
  
  Udhaya, Dandanaka,
  
  Sorry for not being able to listen. I am at the mercy of Yahoo Geocities.
  
  Dandanaka,
  
  Your name is very musical!! ;)
  
  
• From: Radhika (@ 151.198.143.63) on: Fri Aug 22 12:52:04 EDT 2003
  
  Hi guys,
  I was able to listen to Rjay's tunes by right clicking on the link and selecting Save Target As. Maybe you could try that option too. A way to work around gecoties problems.
  Rjay,
  I liked the melody and orchestration of both the tunes. Keep going!!!
  
  
• From: Radhika (@ 151.198.143.63) on: Fri Aug 22 13:02:44 EDT 2003
  
  Udhaya,
  My mail to your yahoo account bounced back. Thought this was the best place to contact you and let you know.
  
  

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