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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srinath (@ s02.austin.ibm.com) on: Wed Feb 10 12:46:55 EST 1999
  
  Pretty close to it, Raj. But I wouldn't embarrass myself by losing my cool over something so trivial ! Sometimes a relatively curt reply closes an argument faster, thus ensuring that no avenues are open for the discussion to deteriorate through ! Now I am hoping Karthi will get back to the discussion on hand !
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ ss05.nc.us.ibm.com) on: Wed Feb 10 13:10:55 EST 1999
  
  Hey Raj!,
  Saw your posts in the New Albums of ARR thread ! guess what ? Nothing's changed ! We're still the most hated bunch in the DF ! What's with these guys after all ? Why do they feel this intense, unsatiated desire to classify IR-fans as villains of the DF ? Why this insecurity ? Why can't they simply accept the fact that there are people in this world who are courageous enough to express an opinion and stick by it ? What makes them think that anyone who doesn't like ARR's music is an IR fanatic ? Doesn't that make them as opinionated, if not more, than the rest of us ? I wish these guys stopped parotting the term 'objectivity' and refrained from using phrases like "open minded", etc ! If we subscribe to their views, that makes us "open-minded and objective" ! What fantastically, convoluted "logic" !!! The entire slanging match started because of Geetha's unfair presumptions and yet IR fans get blasted !!! I have seen some pretty wild statements against Geetha in this forum and have felt sorry for her in the past. But this time, she blew her top and while that is understandable given her past bad experiences, I simply detest the by-standers who are crowing about how right Geetha is and how BAD IR fans are. She's not right. She made a justifiable mistake, but she made the mistake, not Raj.
  
  Guys, you ought to have pacified Geetha, while explaining that Raj was not mounting an attack on ARR fans. Unfortunately, you are taking sides and encouraging reactions like hers. Think what you may of IR fans, but let me tell you that you are not being held in very high esteem by us either.
  
  
• From: Clarify (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Wed Feb 10 17:36:19 EST 1999
  
  Exactly my feelings, Srinath. I have criticized Geetha in the past, but that was mainly because of the holier than thou attitude that she adopted in all of her postings. Somehow some people think they are above criticism. If I dont like a review, I have every right to say so, dont I? Honest to God, I swear, I have never been personal in any of my postings here. And what do I get in return ... someone calling me Notorious. Oh Boy. After the sequence of postings in that thread, I said to myself : Now she's gonna do something to prove her 'neutrality' , and voila ---- she favourably reviews Alai Meedhu in the IR's new album thread. Now when somebody calls her a HCARRF, she can go Me ARR fan...no me simply likes music....see, I reviewed an IR album favourably.
  
  What hurt me most was Udhayas posting that sympathized with Geetha and accused a bunch of us who posted in the thread of throwing fan-club vitriol. No sir, this time the vitriol was from the other side.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ pdxss902.pdx.intel.com) on: Wed Feb 10 19:04:18 EST 1999
  
  Srinath & Clarify & Raj,
  
  Continue your good postings irrespective of whether the so called neutral observers approve them or not. There are many like me who fall back to TFM to relax from work. I don't understand why most of them scream all they want and proclaim themselves that they are the victims. I guess, offence is the best form of their defense. Raj, I appreciate your long postings and ur genuine attempts to logically argue with others. Continue
  ur postings. Though I dont post often, trust me that there are many silent observers like me who enjoy good postings irrespective of which MD they support.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on: Wed Feb 10 23:36:05 EST 1999
  
  Srinath, Raj and Others!
  
  I thought I had made many summations long before that I thought I didn't have anything more as of now to post here either in favour of MSV or to validate the title of this thread. I just haven't discovered anything new to make my posting worthwhile what with just the 2 cassettes and you bet, just 2 cassettes of PS' and some 70's songs
  I have with me right now. All my other cassettes are with my friends and haven't listened to a lot of music (you know I have to do a lot more of listening now...I think Srinath, I explained many things in my mail to you) in the past 3 months! So please continue with your postings unperturbed. I will get back with noteworthy comments as quickly as possible! (Please don't ever think I had made all those postings without substantial reasons. I'm only saying that I have to come up with more discoveries to validate my claims - especially because I find myself bare not being able to recall many IR numbers (to prove my claim that is!) probably because of years of out of touch and having to depend only on my memory...)
  
  (Just a bit of digressing...
  Hi Srinath, I didn't know you were picky about that 'almost mugged' stuff! I thought we all were in our lightest veins when we picked you up on that - sorry if we were to irritate you and what, make you lose your famed cool! And Raj, don't be childish:-)! BTW, I didn't understand a bit of that Gita stuff! Srinath, don't be worried that you're all a bunch of notorious guys out here - you very well know it's all part of the game! BTW, you have again not answered my question: Who were you with in NY: your w or gf :-))
  
  
• From: (Villain Ananda?)Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Feb 11 01:31:58 EST 1999
  
  "And Raj, don't be childish:-)!"
  ...Oh!Where do I butt in the midst of your sermon to srinath, karthi sir?!
  If you note the paragraph closely, this line is buttressed in between a couple of addresses to srinath. Atleast ,you could have quoted my 'childish' remarks, if any, to justify your advice:). Beats me fair and square..still, i'll guess..is it possibly that you are refering to my reiteration of the challenge to stick to this topic? Probably my insinuation that you had no points to support MSV made you call me childish. I had clearly stated that it was a deliberate provocation to steer you back to this topic, sir:). I thought geetha was a special case who didnt understand my humour..but since even a relatively calmer person like you seem to have lost cool thanks to my (what i thought was) humour, I suppose the fault lies with me..I'll try to be 'serious'(mind, it i s never easy for me to be serious..I am going to give a shot at it for the sole purpose of avoiding treading on the sensibilites of DF-ers...but I must also warn guys like Rajesh(BTW, Thanks Rajesh for being appreciative of my posts!) that the humour and punch they were hitherto appreciating in my posts will automatically disappear :)...er...no... :( ... :)
  ...oops...can i ever be serious?!:))
  
  Anyway, I wouldnt bother too much defending myself here..thats not my primary aim, remember? Let me come to my favourite pastime:
  Well, you come in, repeatedly state that IR is not the best(and on occasions you have come up with gems like "MK is better than MP"!), and when srinath challenges you to prove why you start a thread to do so, state that you will come up with instances where Raja had digressing interludes, and after 10 days , you still cant come up with a SINGLE, SOLITARY instance to back up your claim, and blame your memory for that!!
  Now, what do I make out of it? That there is no such instance...you came up with azhagiya kannae and that has been sufficiently explained. Tell me , even assuming that there are , say 50 instances where Raja's interludes digress how does it prove that he was not great. But let alone 50, you have not come up with one instance! Okay, so , memory can play truant...but if really as many instances as you seem to think exist, is it possible that your memory will forget EACH single of them? I find it a trifle too thick, karthi!
  
  
  
  Okay, good luck, I hope you really come up with numbers where you feel the interludes digress because I have a feeling that if Raja made his intrludes digress, it would be reflected in the mood of the screen(it is the other way around actually). So, I am sure that for every instance you come up with, this will be the reason.So, I think if you actually come up with the instances, we can eliminate your doubts by justifying them inlight of their situation! We are waiting , Karthi! Take your own time... I have deadlines and it will be atleast a week before I can come back to this forum for writing.
  
  Sri, as a veteran in this forum, you must know better that in this forum, IR-fan is a bad thing to be. If you express a desire for original music,you are being narrow-minded. So, wahts new?
  I have learnt to ignore these barbs. They dont affect me. As for geetha, I didnt hit back at her even after she expressed hersekf in so vulgar a manner("my musical knowledge surpasses yours", "you are silly", "crass") because I felt that she had done that because of past experiences. SO, I was willing to overlook this GROSS impropriety.As shankar said in that thread "marappom, mannippom" was the policy I followed. Ofcourse, like karthik(alias clarify) it hurt me to see that when she was the offender(even though she offended because she didnt understand my humour) , my dear objective friends supported her ("Go, girl,go" ,"Fan-club vitriol") and actually called me names(TROUBLEMAKER!). Not a word of censure for the filthy language she used. Whereas the title troublemaker for me without me having done anything to incite anyone! But let us leave it at that ,sri. Because this will stand testimony to our tolerance and objectiveness in the future. If the so-called "middle-men" stop to think, they will see how reasonable and pOlite I have been INSPITE OF extreme provocation by geetha and of how hasty and unjustified they have been(Udhaya sir, forgive me for the following observation..but I feel like asking "Mannavanum neeyo....vala naadum unatho..." etc to you. Of all the posts berating me , yours hurt me the most because I didnt expect you to pronounce that hasty and rash judgement). But then, if objectivity is a mere mask they wear to hide their acknowledgement of mediocrity, well, I wouldnt give too much of thought to their statements. This incident proves the hollowness of their avowed objectivity and neutrality...because, just because I am an IR-fan and open ARR-baiter they condemned me without taking into account the facts of the matter. But the most disturbing part is they didnt have ONE SINGLE word of censure for the deplorable language of geetha. Till this moment, No one has pointed out to geetha that in a public forum like this, even if you are extremely provoked you shouldnt use the kind of filthy language she used. Even assuming I was a villain(which I certainly was not), they should have at the least pointed out tha undesirability of using that kind of language to her while berating me. They haven't .Which proves that they are just waiting for a chance to put down any IR-fan for anything. Never mind the facts! So, I must observe, this exposes their mask of neutrality!
  
  Let us continue to stick to our guns... I'll be back next wek, at the earliest. Till then, have fun continuing to play villains...lets not mind being called villains ,for, the cause we espouse (that of Raja's greatness) is lofty enough that it is an automatic antidote to these barbs!
  
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Feb 11 10:46:52 EST 1999
  
  Raj: I thought that we were aggreeing to disagree/Let sleeping dogs lie, e.t.c. I don't know what crass means to you, but it is certainly not considered 'deplorable' language in England. It is strong language, but you and I have both made our apologies and forgotten the matter? Please chill mannnnn......Also, let me apologise again, I don't think that you're being 'picked' on but that more people, like me, want to see un-biased comments and not put-downs, without suitable justification. Of course, you did not do that to put me down and I'm now in realisation of this fact and APOLOGISE for the trouble caused. Please all, let's let it go and carry on 'discussing' music.
  
  KARTHIK: I will state here as I have done so many times, I refuse to be pushed to a side by you if I make comments about any, I STATE, ANY MD. I will state the good and bad of them all, whether it be ARR or IR or Deva or G Ramanathan. I feel that my blast to Raj included more comments to you than to him, as all you ever do when I write something, without any justification what-so-ever is critisize me and try your best to put me down. I've had a lot of attacks from you, just because I express my opinion. I have every right to state if a piece of music is good or bad, IMO. I do not have a 'holier than thou' attitude, simply one that has a broad musical interest base and a very open mind to music, as I obviously take pains to listen to and buy every piece of TFM, I think I have the right to make comparisons, I also feel that you discard what I say, just because I go both ways, one in IR's direction, for his Carnatic/Western knowledge and the other ARR, for his technological base. I happen to have a love for both and as you may have notices, my Alai Meedhu review was for that song only, as it was the one that caught my attention, the reat of KK soungs ARRish, but I did not have a stong enough opinion on those songs to comment on them. To second this, just because I know musicians from India or that I'm friend's with someone who paly's for ARR doesn't mean that it is the sole reason that I like his music.
  
  This is why I try and tell people to be neutral or that if they have a 'blind' obsession, that they should at least 'listen' to other's music and give other's a chance, before slandering them. If your slander is technically or emotionally justifiable, then fine, but to 'read between the lines' or critisize every thing I write, it is simply un-fair.
  
  Those people who told me to keep writing are those who have read MANY of my postings and know that I AM Un-biased, thus, they have chosen to ask me to keep writing, unlike you, who is happiest if I stay away from the forum. Is this fair?, or as Raj was upset by my insinuation(as he is quite right to do so - SORRY RAJ for putting you and Clarify/Karthik in the same bracket), it looks like it's you who hates women who openly express their opinion? - Sorry for this personal attack. Do you pick on everyone as you do with me or what? Did you read threads like the 'Greatest song of all time? Maybe you'll understand the way I see music if you read this. Maybe this will stop your animosity towards me and that we can all go back to discussing the topics in an intelligent fasion.......
  
  Let me please ask you guys to calm down and accept my apologies for this and some other threads becoming so war-like...... NO HARD FEELINGS......
  
  

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