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Where did Hey Ram and Sirai Chaalai' music fail in relation to the epic Lagaan

Topic started by rf (@ 172.164.126.190) on Sun Oct 21 02:08:51 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Lagaan is a must see, though it did not come from Chennai, it is a must see to understand so many things about what TFM and TFilms in general have missed out in catering to a global audience. An actor who gave us Appoorva Sahotharargal with Ilayaraja Hey Ram was a big mistake and lacking in thinktank. Kamalhasan depended on Hype for that abstract storyline to sell. Sirai Chaalai was too stuffed i believe with elements that it lacked proper perspective and its songs were just ordinary attempts. A period film should have the type of music ARR created for Lagaan. Amazing stuff! (IMHO, Lagaan has become my favorite film in all aspects (screenplay, acting, story, casting and the bgm and songs)while Apoorva Sahotharargal is my second favorite...) I am saying that IR should come out of his mould and look at a world audience in taking up assignments like period films and be open to suggestions/criticisms/information and keep eyes and ears to the ground. IMHO, directors prpoducers are shunning him because audience has changed but IR cares only for Mozart and Bach and not for contemporary ideas. Lagaan is a good lesson for how Marudanayagam's music should be composed. I know HCIRF cannot accept this, it will take time as it took me (SuperFanofIR) to learn.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.129.199) on: Wed Oct 24 17:03:33 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath,
  That kind of albums happen rarely. How many Thiruda Thiruda happened? You would also note that these were more western. Moreover, one should also get an oppurtunity to do that kind of music. His “conviction in his philosophy of music” may also stop him from resorting to doing that kind of music (i.e., western/modern) regularly as many have already taken that path since then. In this context, if u look at things as of now, he is the only one who seems to be doing creative native music. Now, isn't that commendable!? Unfortunately, as peoples taste has changed for music, even a Bharati would not become an instant craze.
  
  If electronic/digial music can only cause that kind of magic then maybe, people should change their taste for music:)
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.129.199) on: Wed Oct 24 17:07:50 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath,
  
  Digression:
  just curious to know what ERB said about "living and existing". did he say that competing is the best form of survival? nakkal illa...seriously. yennikam romba padichadu kidayaadhu...
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Oct 24 17:10:11 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath, I wanted to send you an email but I hope you dont mind me saying this - for all your logical/analytical ability and wide reading/knowledge you are missing one thing in your personality, I am afraid, and that is, respect for accomplished people. IR is no ordinary guy, he is somebody special. He is a really, really smart person, a genius if you will. So please be respectful when making references to him. You are making some good points but if you dont put it right, I dont think I feel inclined to discuss with you (I am sure there are other people like me).
  I hope you will take this in the right spirit.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Oct 24 17:15:27 EDT 2001
  
  KS, re: music as universal language. Cant you tell whether a piece of chinese, irish or peruvian music is happy or sad ? Fun or sombre ? Yes, that is what I meant by univeral language (communication). I dont expect everybody to like every kind of music however good they be. I am aware of the strong ties between music and culture.
  (For your reading please - http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?392:2
  )
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.129.199) on: Wed Oct 24 17:42:34 EDT 2001
  
  kiru,
  
  yes. got it. i too meant the same. not that i misunderstood u. that's why included "In that sense,..." in my posting.
  
  And thanks for the link.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Wed Oct 24 18:01:41 EDT 2001
  
  //"I am afraid, and that is, respect for accomplished people. IR is no ordinary guy, he is somebody special. "//
  
  I rushed back to my posts to see if I had written something disrespectful about IR. But since one tends to miss the same mistakes how many ever times i proof read..
  
  I am sorry if I was disrespectful to IR. Some times in trying to contest a point or concept, I get carried away and miss some common courtesies.
  However, in the future I shall refrain from such errors..
  
  P.S: was it the comparison to gav. or kapil?... I wud be happy if you pointed out the specific instance...my email i.d is here...
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Wed Oct 24 18:14:13 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  
  AFter trying hard to recollect "in the grip of prejudice" (it was the 3rd chapter in english prose std X). I believe IR's current life exactly matches the title of the story and the character of ERB who wrote it.
  
  ERB if I remember correctly wud be writing about a black man's travails in life. He is a Ph.D or something as high as that, exceptionally qualified and talented, BUT he is jobless.
  
  He talks about being overqualified for some JOBS ( either he is denied jobs or he doesnt want to stoop low) and "Too Black" for some good jobs .
  
  He would talk about survival in two forms 1 is "living" which is the better form of survival.. he wud give an analogy of some "walls of a building" which meant fighting to survive... and the relative performance against co-human beings determining the standard of life..
  
  He would talk about many prejudices
  1) against black people
  2) prejudice of overqualified people by branding some daily life job as banal.
  3)prejudice of some employers to brand him overqualified.
  4) prejudice against working on a job that doesnt fit your qualification...
  
  on the "existing" side he wud say..something like "merely dragging the soul along like torn shoes" .its been more than a decade since i read this and so i am recollecting from memory..but the "dragging the soul like torn boots " came in the exam as ERC :-)
  
  He wud in the end say such "prejudices" r like clouds which cover clear thought and decisions.
  
  maybe MS who, if he reads this maybe able to recollect it ...:-) (MS..ethavathu gnabagam irukka)
  
  My memory, although reasonable accurate tends to mix to separate events.. so the regular disclaimer applies..
  
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.129.199) on: Wed Oct 24 18:25:30 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath,
  
  Thanks for the explanation. After reading it would just like to say that "conviction" could be mistaken for "prejudice". In IR's case, personally, i'm sure the other way is not the case.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Wed Oct 24 18:40:41 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath :-) I fail to recollect my apt phone number many times and am pretty (in)famous for my absent mindedness in my ambience. So, need I tell you more ? :-)
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Wed Oct 24 20:39:01 EDT 2001
  
  bharath: all your prejudice, accomplishment, competetion non-sense applies to youngsters like you (and me too :-) ). if you can, go meet IR and try to find out what he is up to now. try to get a glimpse of his personality; he is very multi-dimensional. i mentioned this before in some thread but besides his famous "intervention" in the screenplays regarding when and where a song should be, he is very often consulted on many different technical aspects of movie-making. i know personally that he helped a great deal in editing for "one modern mega project" (which unfortunately did not do well in the theaters :-( ). he is an accomplished photographer; for an "uneducated" person, he speaks (i am not sure if he reads and write) all the south indian language and a few more indian and foriegn languages. he is very talented in tamizh poetry (in fact he read some of his veNpA-s to me once a few of which later appeared in cAvi - or was it kungkumam? i was actually impressed - when it comes to thamizh poetry impressing me is not an easy one! :-)) ). he is actively involved in a few "social" projects which none of us will ever get to know about! [:-)]. he ALSO does music. regarding his attitude to IFM, "been there, done that". he does a lot of what "public" calls "junk" movies to just keep going and he spends his (musical) energy only on special projects like kutti, kAmarAcar, ... . you take it or leave it, this is what happening and this is what is going to continue to happen. he still longs for recognition not as "another IFM composer" but "in the league of john williams, leonard slatkin" ... (which john williams? do you know how many of john williams are famous musicians?) anyways, ... we can keep on "trying to contest a point or concept" but that's not going to change a little bit of IR's output, be it to your liking or not!
  
  
• From: Fan of hihi (@ 202.12.144.21) on: Wed Oct 24 21:16:04 EDT 2001
  
  Nethi adi.......
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.246.130) on: Wed Oct 24 23:36:30 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath,
  
  wld also like to add that IR might also have thought of as to what is good to our society and what cld cause degradation of our cultural values. he certainly has that kind of foresight which we for sure lack. don't want to stress too much on "our cultural values" again in this thread too but strongly feel it is high time for people to think about their taste for music.
  
  and looking at the current generation (at large) who while being highly educated and knowledgeable (?) tend to be more arrogant and lack innocence (which should not be the case) including most of the DFers here (including me:)), talking "more sense" may not make "any sense" at all. and in such times i am glad IR has enough “conviction in his philosophy of music”. even if his music is of no good to our society (which is not the case, i believe) i am more than happy that it is not having any kind of ill-effects on our society...unlike others'.
  
  
• From: Sridhar (@ 203.199.205.25) on: Thu Oct 25 07:43:18 EDT 2001
  
  Bharth,
  
  I think even when ARR can not defend himself the way you do, friend. Keep it up!
  
  1. Please tell me how you know that they wanted to put a different tune in Hindi "Mudhalvane " at the time Mudhavlan was being shot. I think AMRathnam decided to remake Mudhalvan into Hindi only after it became a box-office hit in Tamil. Saying that they have earmarked a different tune in Hindi in place of "Mudahlvane" is simply absurd.
  I have read somewhere Shankar saying that he wanted Rahman to compose new tunes for two of the songs, though he did not assign a reason for that. May be because Obvoiusly, this song was quite ordinary that he wanted a better one.
  
  3. I never said ARR gave bad music for these directors. When you run out of argument , you are practising this escapist psychology.
  
  4. I made a mistake in saying RajHind was composed by ARR; i wanted to say "Nadheem=-Shravan".
  
  Remember India winning a gold medal Olympics Hockey. No big competition. Absence of Nadheem- Shravan made big directors like S.Ghai to look out for the likes of ARR.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Oct 25 10:58:22 EDT 2001
  
  again I am responding to more than 1 person...
  
  Sridhar,
  
  //". Please tell me how you know that they wanted to put a different tune in Hindi "Mudhalvane " at the time Mudhavlan was being shot"//
  
  i DONT know.. I DIDNT say so!
  
  //"3. I never said ARR gave bad music for these directors. When you run out of argument , you are practising this escapist psychology"//
  
  s p e l l out the reason(s) why you think they didnt choose to work with ARR. and I will come up with a good parallel some years b4 ? (understand! )
  
  //"Absence of Nadheem- Shravan made big directors like S.Ghai to look out for the likes of ARR. "//
  
  it is like saying absence of competition made MR, BR, KB, Shankar, P Vasu(our equalant of SGhai) take to ARR. if yours is true mine is also!
  
  
  hihi:-)
  
  got your points! hear mine out also! the web page is tfm ( where the 'f' stands for films ) and the topic is "why hey ram sirachaalai did not do well when lagaan did"
  
  the obvious reference is these 3 movies are multi lingual and so Hindi came into the picture (having the largest movie audience in India)
  
  so in just keeping up with the facts
  
  Fact1: tamil-hindi ARR movies Roja, Bombay, Lagaan did well!
  
  Fact2: tamil-hindi IR movies sirachaalai, hey ram did NOT do well!
  
  in determining the reasons for two indisputable facts I asked for your opinions behind Fact 2.
  
  IR may be bigger than tfm now. he may have lost interest. he can be like a 12th std student who say that he is unable to concentrate on 12th std because of his IIT coaching classes.
  
  I will stand up and clap for IR for all his acheivements . I will excuse your affrontery of assuming I dont know about IR's photographic or editing interests. I will also excuse your sly'ness in assuming I am unaware of John Williams (yes! I did think JH was a tea stall owner).
  
  I am sorry dude those dont matter to the topic.... To the question of "Did IR have a role
  in the failing of sirachaalai or Hey Ram?"
  the answer could be a simple YES/NO. "why did IR make it big in hindi"? could also have many answers.. but those answers certainly dont contain any of the reasons that you have given!
  
  KS,
  
  //"and looking at the current generation (at large) who while being highly educated and knowledgeable (?) tend to be more arrogant and lack innocence (which should not be the case) including most of the DFers here (including me:)), talking "more sense" may not make "any sense" at all. and in such times i am glad IR has enough “conviction in his philosophy of music”. even if his music is of no good to our society (which is not the case, i believe) i am more than happy that it is not having any kind of ill-effects on our society...unlike others'."//
  
  what DID this mean. Please be specific in your critisism. I havent said anything derogatory about IR so far?
  
  
  
  

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