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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Neel (@ ts002d41.har-ct.concentric.net) on: Sun Feb 27 14:13:59 EST 2000
  
  ARR does produce good music which has a lot of entertainment value and mass appeal in the pop culture of today's India. But the "Thamizh Mann Vasanai" that I enjoy in IR's music is totally missing from ARR's music. I want Tamil film music to sound like it came from Tamil Nadu and not from tinsel and glitter covered Bombay. I don't mind the kind of music ARR scores for Hindi films. Tamil film music needs to maintain its uniqueness. No matter how much the music evolves it still needs to keep its root.
  
  
• From: gyani (@ iq-ind-as007-55.iquest.net) on: Sun Feb 27 15:45:29 EST 2000
  
  what are the odds of poor, outcaste person with folk song as basis, coming to city, master western classical, carnatic, and all other kinds of music go to Symphony and make History, ruling tamil music world even now with unique style against copy mongers who were born and raised in a city don't know their style, copy music from Pop and other old MDs?
  
  Can Diamond Pearl can answer this. Without Ilaiyaraaja where would he be first?
  
  
  
• From: STS (@ sf-ip-3-59.dynamic.ziplink.net) on: Sun Feb 27 21:15:32 EST 2000
  
  Diamond's statement is idiotic. Speaking like people born in village can compose folk tunes easily. If that is the case, me and many Indians are born in village and can not even imagine a tune. It is an art and that has to come by birth. And for IR it is true. For ARR it is like production process, basically assembly process. Picking up pieces from here and there and stopping them. Well reacting to VM makes me foolish.
  
  
• From: RA (@ bay-71.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Mon Feb 28 00:11:23 EST 2000
  
  
  Hi Folks
  
  Diamond suffers from verbal diahorrea-mental constipation combo.
  
  Without IR he would still be in the secretariat at Fort St.George pushing files.
  
  Just ignore him.
  
  RA
  
  
• From: Desi (@ b57-24.das.mcgill.ca) on: Mon Feb 28 20:34:16 EST 2000
  
  
  I dunno what's up with most of the people responding to this site. I dunno where u get your ideas from.
  U say ARR is reusing music and all that, but quite frankly I don't see anyone other music director(even IRji) making this good an image for India on the international front. ARR's doing India a huge favor by bringing it back into the eyes of the world, showing them that India isn't a low class, poverty struck, culture-less country.
  If u didn't know, ARR used to be IR's keyboard player. And if U take a look at the last events of IR career, he seems to have gone downhill after ARR left him to make his own group. Criticism is good, but don't over do it.
  ARR is not only making an image for India and it's culture, but also, for Indians like us all around the world .
  Here's a question for u,(Try this with a non-Indian friend): When have you ever heard a foreigner listen to Indian music by IR or Nadeem Shravan? If he did, he'd probably say it sucked. Take the same guy, and let him listen to a tune by ARR (ex: Dil Se, Taal...)
  I guarantee he'll be impressed.
  Whenever u watch American documentries on India, they always show you the worst places, the poorest ugliest people and the worst music ever. They never focus on the good aspects of India, maybe cause they're scared that India will upstage them.
  This is why we should support ARR and stop living in the past. He's gonna bring Indian pop culture to America and kick some a$$ in the process.
  Just remember, this makes u look good too.
  So support your fellow Indians, instead of putting 'em down.
  Be cool. Be proud. Be brown. Jai Hind!
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.153) on: Mon Feb 28 22:35:35 EST 2000
  
  Desi!
  I think we are talking about musical merits & demerits here and not politics and marketing:-) NOM!
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Mon Feb 28 22:38:51 EST 2000
  
  Desi,
  You could come to North America as a Java Programmer, write some good programs and get accolades from your american co-workers and make money selling your software OR (a big OR) you could have invented Java itself living whereever you are from. What is your choice ?
  
  :)
  
  
• From: KK (@ news.ti.com) on: Mon Feb 28 23:24:37 EST 2000
  
  Hello Desi,
  Some of Rajini's movies are doing well in Japan,
  it doesn't mean that he is a great actor.
  What does a foreigner know about indian music
  (Carnatic/Hindustani) even if they praise ARR
  music. They might praise him for pop music not
  for WCM/CM. What crap are you talking here.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 209.8.128.113) on: Tue Feb 29 00:07:51 EST 2000
  
  Desi:
  It is not how many foreigners listen to our music that's important ! It is which particular foreigners listen to our music that's really important :-) And the right people have made the right noises about IR too several times in the past. BTW, the 2+ years I've been in the US, I am yet to come across a single gora or gori who's as passionate as we are about music. So, I don't see myself giving too much importance to their opinions. America is often the land of one album wonders and it makes little difference to IR's genius whether he is recognized here or not ! However, it is important that we appreciate the good work done by ARR ! ARR is often unfairly bashed here in retaliation seemingly innocuous statements like - "[IR] seems to have gone downhill after ARR left him to make his own group". IMO, such pot-shots are entirely unnecessary from either side.
  
  
• From: kk (@ bbndrel5.net.external.hp.com) on: Tue Feb 29 00:50:58 EST 2000
  
  Desi,
  I know arr attained a phenomenal growth over the years in popularity. Let me update his todays status in popularity. I watch all language channels here and I can feel the pulse(than in CA)
  
  Tamil Nadu:
  +Supposedly No.1 in buisness.
  +Shows enough difference in sound and music from many other MDs.
  +Accepted as the new generation MD and a trend setter.
  +Fans consisting of most of easy listners and fraction of ppl with taste.
  -Ordinary BGM.
  -Sound bit alien, even when required. Makes good albums that doesnt always go well with the movie.
  -Still havent made a hit for a low profile movie.
  -Traces of old tamil tunes.
  
  North India:
  +No.1 MD, but his muci is not No.1. Never made mega hits like KKHH, RH, HAHK etc. (ie. native taste of North india). Actualy he is just another MD with good name, among the many nameless.
  +Not many MDs follows his trend, still Ashiqi (Nadeem) kind of music is prefered.
  -Sound is not much different from Indi-Pop. But Music wise does shows good difference.
  -Stuck with SouthIndianness.
  -His Music is not hot cake, lot depends on stuff and popularity of the movie itself (unlike in TN, where his albums are hyped as No.1 right away, whatsoever)
  -accused as repeatative (though not much true)
  Now what is going to his status in West. Many Indian muscians are accused of altering indian music for western audience ( including ravi shankar etc.). Rahman is no different. A real music lover will like good music in what ever form its given. We need not ammuse any American
  by packaging our music between burgers. I think he will make some usual pop (with american sample CDs) and give some indian shade. what more? Kick american a$$ with thier own trick?!I dont think He is going to make any impact there.
  
  Lets hope I eat my own words.
  
  BTW: Can we change our image by our music? whats american iamge about latin america after likes of Ricky Martin.
  
  
• From: sara (@ as24-s16-145-205.cwci.net) on: Tue Feb 29 03:37:53 EST 2000
  
  Friends, I think that there can't really be any comparison between IR and ARR....Come on, they each have their own individual style that has made Tamil music what it is today..I think that they have been the two main pillars of our musical film culture.
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ scully07.slip.yorku.ca) on: Tue Feb 29 03:51:21 EST 2000
  
  sara
  Nice words...
  
  
• From: Raja (@ tide73.microsoft.com) on: Tue Feb 29 08:11:36 EST 2000
  
  This comparison of IR with ARR or any one else does not make sense to me. IR is a Genius with a capital G. More than his music, his music sense, the right tune for the right situation, makes him taller than any other. It is sad but true that ARR some times makes a mess of a sequence by totally inappropiate music. One example is the song from Bombay, a romantic scene between the husband and the wife but the song was a Music fit to accompany a Orgy.
  
  probably ARR is in the lime light because the music is flashy and people love flshes rather than brilliance.
  
  So may songs of IR have stood the test of time but ARR'S "Chart busters" have a short life.
  
  i am not belittling ARR but comparing an Artificial Water fountain that he is with , a
  natural Water fall in all its majesty which IR is, is not correct.
  
  Even talking the two names in the same breath is an insult to IR. Aa an IR admirer, i do not relish this comparion.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Raja (@ tide73.microsoft.com) on: Tue Feb 29 08:21:51 EST 2000
  
  This Saturday i was in a concert in Seattle by PT.jasraj, the renowned Hindustani vacalist. i am from the southrn part of India and have not listened to Hindustani at all. But the concert and the rendering sent shivers down my spines. The vibrations which the indian music creates in you is to felt and it could never be explained.
  
  Just because the music of ARR appeals to some western population does not make ARR a better musician . He is a music director, he "directs" music from various sources into "his " song.
  
  We, Indians have a pathological problem. acceptance by western world makes everthing great.we do not know our values and tresures unless wet accepts it.
  
  The western music world loves Back Street Boys but still the charm of Frank Sinatra lives. Probably tomorrow the back street boys will be replaced by Backyard boys but Sinatra will live forever in his music. Like wise a Deva could do a ARR but only IR could do what he could do.
  
  

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