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SPB and TMS - Compare and Contrast

Topic started by rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on Tue Mar 16 12:39:41 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I had mentioned very briefly mentioned about TMS's talents (and some deficiencies thereof strictly IMO) in another thread. Obviously, the two kings of TFMs deserve at least a separate thread for discussion, instead of merely being a 'distraction' in some other thread.

My request to the participants is:
Please try to be objective in assessing their qualities. Let us explore difference in background, cultural situation at the time of their prime, acting style of the principal heroes, training etc. Let us not take the easy path of 'mere mudslinging' on the artists or the DF participants. Believe me, if and when I have done it, I have not been proud of it!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com) on: Thu Mar 18 15:47:29 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  You should not take SPB's stage performances for consideration as I have seldom seen him being serious about it. He just goes ahead and has fun. Infact , the great Mohd.Rafi did something close to a neraval on stage, singing the pallavi 5 times with improvisations.
  Raj,
  SPB did not improvise for MSV ? Incorrect.
  MSV and KVM will have to be given the credit for accomodating a singer's intuitive abilities too. SPB IMO, improvised best under MSV, VKumar, VijayBhaskar ,SG and KVM and ofcourse Satyam, Rajan-Nagendra etc.Have you heard songs like "Enakkoru kaathali irukkindraaL", "Kamban emaanthan", "Margazhippaniyil", "Naan endral atha AvaLum Naanum" ,"Radha Kaathal varaadha" etc. (only to state a few) ? You can add "Angum ingum paathai undu" from "AvargaL" in the list too.
  Rameshb, when I get the time I will respond to your post.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Mar 18 16:01:16 EST 1999
  
  SL: Joot-nu sattham ketkudha! Naan thaan Kathinadhu!
  
  Actually, me and rajaG were talking about 'improvisations', not improvisations!
  Athaavathu, improvisation endra peyaril kolai seivadhu. I thought, apart from Stage shows, this kind of 'improvisations' surfaced mainly under Raja's less illustrious peers. Especially in Telugu because guys like Raj-koti,MM were juniors to him and hence dared not correct him.So, what I meant was such kolai , he did not do under MSV and other seniors because he dared not attempt it, that being the initial stage of his career.
  
  Whereas, in the case of Raja, Raja was his peer and while he did this kolai to Raja's peer-MD's , he dared not do it to Raja. Because, Raja wouldnt allow it.
  Actually, i also suspect he did this to other MD's because their songs were only worth that!
  
  So, tahts that and you know what...and all that!
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Mar 18 16:03:35 EST 1999
  
  And rajaG: Precisely what I was trying to say. Finally, we agree on something other than Anu Malik and Anand-Milind:)
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Thu Mar 18 16:27:14 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  
  Are you sure that there are lot of instances where he has done 'kolais' in studio recordings? Keep in mind that with 30,000 songs he has to be responsible for at least 1,500 kolais (5%)(and that too because of him and not for other sucky factors like bad MD, sound etc.) to even THINK of casting aspersions, leave alone CONCLUDING about it. I doubt it Raj! Stage shows - yes that's a different ball game and I agree with you agreeing with my agreement with you.
  
  
• From: raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Mar 18 16:36:52 EST 1999
  
  I dont know anbout recordings. What I mean is the end-product. I cant quote examples..offhand...I try to think of all those songs which have this unique feature, which I have felt while hearing them but I draw a blank.Hm.I am beginning to sound like Karthi:) One song that springs to the mind is ,howevr, under Raja.."Vanthaal mahalakshmi"..konashtais about sums it up.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com) on: Thu Mar 18 18:09:34 EST 1999
  
  Raj, got it ! Mannikkavum !
  
  
• From: SRK (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Thu Mar 18 18:22:07 EST 1999
  
  An interesting observation about SPB:
  
  30,000 songs in 30 years means 1000 songs a year means around 3 songs a day NON-STOP including Sundays and Saturdays - Wow that's really amazing!!!
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab1.theatrium.net) on: Thu Mar 18 19:34:21 EST 1999
  
  Ei Raj, unnaala enna izhukkaama irukkavE mudiyaadhaa :-)
  
  
• From: pozhudhu pogadha bommu (@ lab1.theatrium.net) on: Thu Mar 18 19:42:13 EST 1999
  
  Illaiye, 365 x 3 = 1095, 1095 - 1000 = 95, 95/3 = approx. 31 days leavu undE?
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab1.theatrium.net) on: Thu Mar 18 19:55:23 EST 1999
  
  Anand, 'Neeyum Nanumaa' vEnaa sollaalaam, aana 'EngE Nimmadhi' -yai kurai solra mudhal person neengadhaan enakku therinju: isn't it really amazing how likes and dislikes vary among people?
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Fri Mar 19 02:34:23 EST 1999
  
  Karthi: Ellam oru paasam dhaan..come to think of it..the only name apart from Raja's that appears in every(most) post(S) of mine is yours...that puts you in elite company..u still complain:)
  
  
• From: easwaran hariharan (@ hud04a01.ml.com) on: Fri Mar 19 12:39:14 EST 1999
  
  rajag
  Ya SPB in live concerts, some times, can be a horrifying experience. I remember seeing one program in TV where he sang the 'enna satham endha neram' and kollufied it.
  There are many songs, his improvisations are over done. As of now, I can think of are, '
  'vandhal mahalakshmiye' - He did sing it great, but lot of unnecessary aaa and eees.
  Monalisa - recent adithyan masterpiece, before the second interludes, he spoiles everything by doing
  a lenghty alabani.
  'Endha pennidam illadha' from caption magal, -
  total kolai. I dunno know how hamsalekha felt after this song recording, and the very recent
  'unnai partha pinnu naan' from kadhal mannan
  
  And he is emotional songs are so emotional, it will throw you off, like vandha sumai thanghi,
  nenjukul ennaru endu and even kadhale kadhale in
  duet. I guess KYJ is much better for this kind of songs.
  I think his 70s songs under MSV, KVM, IR, VK are much better with controlled emotions and without unnecessary improvisations. I agree with you that, it should be because of Music directors.
  I sincerly think, he should not be allowed to improvize on his own, it may be harsh, but in some songs, he does not have any clue how to do it.
  
  with :-)
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Mar 19 16:58:40 EST 1999
  
  1. Voice analysis.
  Unlike TMS , SPB's voice sounds non-linear apparantly having origin from larynx narmally fits for lower notes, but he can sway between a wider octave range and he has an immense potential to travel in frequency from lower to higher and produce microtones in an unbelievable manner. I think this is one of the main reasons for his success in his filmy album shankarabaranam apart from his other strengths in voice gliding , swaram singing etc. After the first line in second charanam in 'rAgam thAnam pallavi',he has shown this skill. Also, in the song 'vaa vaa pakkam vaa , pakkam vara vetkama (thanga magan), he does this voice-travel after the second interlude(before the second charanam) changing his 'kattai' in the beginning and reaching his normal pitch with a higher intensity. A unique feat! The BGM violins help him a lot when he does so though!(kudos to Raja!) He can reach some lower notes without nasal usage, but he invariably shifs to nasal singing many times. It is queer to observe that he adopted a nasal singing for Sivaji (iyarkai ennum) and a normal style (emenating from his throat) for Ayiram nilavE vaa when he started his career in TFM (quite contrasting of TMS!). I like his duets with PS especially those having soft notes and PS feminine voice suits better with him than TMS! example 'yamuNa nathi ingE rAthai mugam' from gowravam and 'kaNNanai ninakkAtha nALillayE' and 'mangayaril maharAni'. He could have sung 100 times more number of songs than he really did in early 70's. It was probably the virtual belief of playback singing style for Sivaji and MGR that TMS set in the minds of people that kept him away until Raja came into TFM scene and rediscovered him.
  
  
  2. pitch synchronization
  SPB can place his 'kattai' to a soft ,lower to a moderately higher note. He can reach an extremely lower side of a lower octave so effortlessly that makes one feel as if that is his normal 'kattai'. In the song 'thoduvathenna thendralO malargalO' (ranga rAttiNam?), a careful observation of the first line of both charanams 'thErilEri dEvathai vanthu' and 'kAmathEnu pAl kaRanthAlO' would reveal the lower side of his frequency modulation. When he attempts to reach the higher side of octave in emotional songs , he tends to overdo it a little(just gets carried away).
  
  3. Expressions
  His potential to express is the best i have ever seen in TFM. He has a zeal to involve himself very closely , especially those love songs and brings out a merry mood in an elegant manner. This unique feature of his voice has been undefeatable so far. I love his duets like 'engaL veetu thanga thEril entha mAtham thiruvizhA(arunOdayam, with PS) and 'mAdhamO AvaNi mangayO'. During the time period between early 70's to mid 70's, he brought out the emotions based on the lyrics and movie situation. In songs 'oru malligai mottu' and 'on a hot summer morning' , his expressions were driven by the lyrics. For example he gives a shrewd joyful touch to lines 'mazhaithuLi pattu.., chillena poothathu ithazh ' (who wrote this 'mazhai' , VM's thAthA?!;-)). One must also observe the song "rAdhA kAdhal vardhA". Especially in those lines like 'kannA un kAthal kadal', 'sugamenna solladi rAdhA', 'mArgazhi Odai, pOloru vAdai ennidam yEnadi rAdhA'. Prior to Raja's entry, he was not really used for pathOs numbers except a very few like 'en kAthal kaNmani yEthEthO ninaithALO solla nANam vanthathO' (which movie?) and a 'thathuva' number 'padaithAnE bramha dEvan 16'.
  
  He started his pathos singing with Raja probably with the song 'Raja enbar mandhiri enbAr' in buvana oru kELvikkuRi (i am not sure) IMO, SJ sheds more emotions than SPB in this song ie her rendering is more melancholic than SPB's expressions. SPB brought about the same kind of emotion in another song in one of the later movies, 'poopOlE unpuNNagaiyil ' and was probably not a soleful presentation and made people feel more monotonous . SPB showed some monotony even in some love songs like 'Ayiram thAmarai mottukkaLE' , just compare this with other numbers like 'thoduvathenna thendralO' and his humming in 'unnai thotta kARRu vanthu ennai thottathu'. He could not express as effectively as his oldies on some lower notes. His fluency was beginning to wane on lower side of melodious tunes and he was beginning to give nasal touches in lower octaves. There is another example 'oru poovAnathil' from kazhugu which is supposed to be sung by a youth in joyful mood and SPB sounded extremely monotonous in his expressions. Even in 'andhi mazhai pozhigirathu', he sounds as if he is being held by some 'calculated expressions' that was forced on him.
  
  But after this he changed the equations and shifted his gear to glide through octave freely and was successful most of the times. His expressions were much better in 'ninaivellam nithya','payanangal mudivathillai', 'sakala kala vallavan' and became very fluent with great involvement especially for kamal songs. Now one can easily compare the love expression of 'rAthiriyil poothirukkum thAmaithAn' in which he sheds those expressions of love more easily with that of 'Ayiram thAmarai mottukkaLE' in which his expressions were meager. Strictly IMO. He has given some splendid performance for the number 'vANam keezhE vanthAl enna' which is one those masterpieces from Raja's creative bank. SPB's expression for mike-mohan songs are good for upbeat numbers and a little overly expressed for pathos.
  
  4. ability to perform elements of melody making(carnatic singing)
  
  As everyone knows , SPB has given an astounding performance in shankarabaranam in spite of the fact that he does not have a professional traning in carnatic singing. The gamakas that he is able to produce is sometimes equivalent to that of a professionally trained carnatic singer. The fluency with which he can do those kalpana swaras are just wonderful. I personally don't have a problem with 'vanthal mahalaxmiye' for his 'aaha ' ,'OhO' stuff. I would put it under one of those elements of expression in which he is showing an overly exuberant guy who is filled merry emotions upon arrival of his wife. He has given an excellent presentation of alabanai, arohanam, avarohanam and swaram singing in the song 'keeravani'(pAdum paRavaigaL)
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Mar 19 17:26:36 EST 1999
  
  Rameshb,
  
  Superb analysis with good examples to substantaite your points! Engayo poyiteenga sir neenga!! Your analysis would have been more complete had you also included some negative points too like SPB's "over-doing", and stage-show "improvisations" etc which others have pointed out.
  
  I watched SPB is some regular telugu music program in TV, and got an impression that he was over-doing his improvisations. I agree with this observation of easwaran and others!
  
  chandy
  
  While you have pointed out all the positives
  
  

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