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Raja's theoritical Approach:

Topic started by D.Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-226.il.us.ibm.net) on Sun Oct 4 11:31:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Raja's theoritical Approach

Yesterday I was in a telephonic discussion with Shashi - (also a DF'er) about Raja's decline in the market.

Essence of our discussion:

We all know Raja writes his score without touching any instrument. This has paved a way for Raja to become very alogorithamic. He is forced into this as he is not hearing it, meaning his scores are very theoritical. A good western classical musician will predict Raja's score after hearing few bars.
He has to change this type of composing, he has to compose something new using his HEART instead of his BRAIN . We were able to calculate the bar lengths of the counter points and BGM that he would place, everything Proved to be very very theoritical approach.
Though theoritically scores are complicated, over a period of time it starts sounding the same for a musical illitrate (masses)

Many of his greatest fans are here this DF (including me), as a responsible fan we can find more about this and convey the message to him somehow.


Statutory Warning: This topic is not to hurt Raja's ablity, there is no doubt in his ablity .I know the fact writing theoritical music is not easy. Theoritically anything is complicated.


D.Srikanth

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-246.il.us.ibm.net) on: Mon Oct 5 20:47:41 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Shashi,
  Thanks for taking steps to or stopping the attacks on me, just when I told something.
  
  I came up Raja theoritical approach consclusion after trying out many songs, it is not out of the blues.
  Who will belive me? no one.
  I have decided not to discuss about this anymore.
  Appa Enaku thangadhuda Sami.
  
  Bye
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: hari (@ ts17-8.slip.uwo.ca) on: Mon Oct 5 21:12:03 EDT 1998
  
  Sashi and Srikkanth:
  
  I really feel sorry that you guys are getting a beating in this thread. While I defer to you
  guys when you say that he is predictable to a western musician, I think the following comment about Bach, one of IR's heroes, might help understand IR's approach:
  
  C.P.E. Bach, one of J.S. Bach's sons, said that when his father heard the beginning of a fugue he would state what contrapuntal devices could possibly be applied and which ones the composer by right ought to apply.
  
  While I am somewhat ignorant when it comes to WC, I believe IR's approach must be closer to Bach than, say, Beethoven, who was bent on breaking all rules (witness the incredible ode to joy in his 9th). I do enjoy Beethoven's symphonies as much as Bach's musical offering (incidentally, Bach actually orchestrated only the sonata part, leaving out the other stuff for the players to work out the details!).
  
  Slightly tangentially, would you guys say that Tyagaraja's kirtanas were formulaic?
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 21:52:20 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: Saying IR is theoretical (ie uses his brain instead of his heart) in some % of songs is one thing and generalising it to all songs is something very different.
  
  Sashi has said the same things that you have without hurting the sentiments of any IR fans. He admits that IR's best do have surprises.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Mon Oct 5 23:08:33 EDT 1998
  
  HI shashi,
  
  Enjoyed your posting. But even I would not agree on your percentages. But suppose for the sake of arguing we
  assume a particular song of IR is stale. When trying to come up with reasons for staleness, don't you think the
  fact that he is unmotivated should be prime reason and would result in a stale song irrespective of whether he
  "thinks" the song or does it otherwise.
  
  Suppose he does it in a different manner. Then I m sure guys like us would be saying "His songs are not good
  because he nowadays passes on a lot of improvisations to fellow musicians and in doing so fails to elicit the
  required quality from them".
  
  Though I do not want to bring in ARR for a fight, for proper perspective, i feel ARR is utterly predictable and
  repetitive.
  
  Now dont you feel KV, Devadhai, Raman Abdullah, Guru and YM were good albums. I feel so. Didnt you see the
  difference in "en veetu jannal" and "Puthithaai" and "Sembaruthi Pennoruthi". Other 2 songs were good too but
  not great to the extent of songs I just mentioned. (would fit the situation though). How about "Nenjathin geetham" Alli Sundaravalli, sri ramane, Muthu Muthu (of course this was not unpredictable but I enjoyed it
  thoroughly though) in KV &
  Oru naal, Deepangal pesum, and Naalthorum (Masterpiece, IMO) in Devadai
  &
  all songs in Guru.
  
  I recently made a casette receording for my friend as he had asked for new IR's songs which I felt were good. I made 35 songs out of which a few were probably 2 years old.
  
  Since his market decline is associated with ARR's arrival let me also take up Avathaaram. I heard this album about 2 years back for the first time. I liked only Thendral vanthu at that time. For an year I was deep into IR's music. After this year's period I had chance to listen to it again, during a car travel from NJ to Baltimore. And you know what happened ?
  
  I listened to the casette for a period of 5 hours afterwards continuously on my travel ! I was moved to tears a hundred times. So I concluded that I was not prepared for IR's music a year prior to that. I also felt betrayed on having taken the comments like "IR's music after ARR's arrival is not good" to the heart. I then decided not
  get influenced by other opinions and mine is good enough :-). So the possibility of song being stale can also come up because of difference in opinion and there is also a possibility that not everyone is involved with the song in a similiar fashion. If you think through this there are infinite variables which come into picture !
  
  But I too agree that the motivation provided by the involvement of film directors who have good music appreciation does wonders in him which is not seen otherwise. We have to attribute it to the 20 years of work. There is nothing that can be done.
  
  My conclusion is that it has nothing to do with his "thinking" and more to do with primary factors like motivation.
  Why I say so is he started his earlier years of music composing like every other guy. He developed this technique as he felt more capable of thinking the music and I am sure he would have nailed out all the flaws in the technique at that point itself. (like when to really play it and see etc)
  
  Expecting your reply
  
  Srikanth,
  
  Come on Srikanth ! You were equally impulsive and personal in your responses and why have you written as if you are being singled out. Please forget all this and come forth with your analysis which is what is most wanted.
  
  Mukund
  
  
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 23:29:43 EDT 1998
  
  Hello hari You have broached on a topic which I have felt many a times but due to my extreme respect to Saint
  Thyagaraja--the incarnate of Narada himself I was/am hesistant to discuss it. I request his forgiveness before I say this. I
  think most of his songs have a formula/pattern/algorithm whatever you want to call it. It is quite easy to predict the
  anupallavi and charanam with >70% confidence correctly. There however are exceptions. For example--the pancharatna
  krithis are very unique. The greatness of St. Thyagaraja is that he composed both the song and the lyrics (Vageyakara).
  Because of this quality the lyrics sit extremely well into his compositions. Moreover he sang with unparalleled bhakti
  which somehow can be felt even by us rasikas (that is what I mean by composing from the heart). Frankly I think
  Dikshathar was a much better music composer and his songs are enormously complicated and to master and perform
  one with full justification is an uphill task to say the least. Thyagaraja was a minimalist and his showed beauty in simplicity.
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Mon Oct 5 23:45:41 EDT 1998
  
  when seeing this 30%-70% ratios etc. i wanted to ask question to u all which i have always been thinking about right from about 10 years back. IR indeed has a great musical sense as compared to us all. so he definitely knows that the song which he has just composed would become a hit or not. for example he definitely knows maasi maasam is better than say 'annan enna thambi enna' from the same film.
  that is why he even choses maasi maasam to play in stage performances and not the other songs. ippadi irukkumbothu why can't he give all hit songs in a film? iam not saying that he has not done it. what iam saying is what makes him compose the so called dabba songs? is it
  lack of interest or lack of motivation or bias towards certain directors or its just that he can't
  because he does not have time? atleast now he is composing for only about 10-15 films a year.
  why can't all the songs be equally melodious or creative as say 'ennai thalllata varuvaala'?
  
  This question applies even to other MD's.
  as for deva i can give the answer. only 5% of the CD and cassettes collection in his house are good at any point of time. so only 5% of his songs are good :-)))
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: N.C. Ramakrishna (@ 207-213-59.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Oct 6 00:28:22 EDT 1998
  
  After following this thread I was surprised to see how much impact IR has created on people. Some (like Srikanth) want to question his capabilty, hurt his ego and take the best out of him.
  
  Where as some enjoy his music without questioning him. But Some (like Sashi) believe that he is giving only 30-40% best where as he can deliver 100% best.
  
  Finally I guess everybody has unique opininon about IR which is that they want listen more of him. He should not stop delivering what he delivered before.
  
  IR market was down but it is not because of his quality nor because his music has become predictable, nor he is boring now adays. Most of the people know that Deva is lifting tune, Most of people knows that ARR is more predictable, Most of the people knows that IR is still best, but why IR is having his market down?
  
  I think one of the reason that as one DF'er mentioned that going out of umberella is good but if you stay too long in rain you catch pnuemonia. The same is happening. They have been in IR's umberella for a quite long time for almost 20 years. They are tasting a different atmosphere of rain that is ARR,Deva,Sirpi etc., who came into TFM when IR was busy composing symphony ( I think so). Now they have tasted enough and recent hits of IR is the proof that they want to be back in IR's umberella. This will happen soon.
  
  Also I felt the same way Mukund felt after listening to Avatharam songs Two gems from IR ( thendral, Adiarathai poosikolla). I tell you they make you really cry. Even Ennai talaatta varuvaalo is heart touching like many of his recent hits.
  
  Now the question comes why he is not giving more of them. I think it is not lack of IR's creativity or theoretical approach. Where is the creativity to throw challenge to techincians except a few. If movies has become commercial where is the point of creativity. See MR Dilse/Uyire how long he can take a Roja type of story ( Some national issue surrounded with love story in a taken different part of country). Where are more of his movies like Mounaraagam?
  
  Why to blame IR for his lack of creactivity. I think before questioning IR all those guys who are responsible should be questioned. If you throw a challenge to a genius he will comeup with a big surprise. Half the songs in the coming movies are crap. Why do they need a genius like IR for such type of songs when they can get Deva or Sirpi for half rate.
  
  I also remeber a report in a paper telling that MR was not happy of ARR because he is too slow. If MR doesnt like a tune which ARR gives, he has to wait a long time to get another tune from him. On the other hand IR gives him the notations readily for 10-12 tunes anytimes he asks. May be writing notations is his systematic approach. Regarding predicabilty when everybody is becoming predictable by listening to them not even one-two years, I dont think after listening to IR for songs of 20 yrs, it is a problem.
  
  Also is there a situation in movie coming up to show his greatness? Is there a situation in movies, which is moving his heart? No certainly not. He knows more than us about the reason why he is not composing master pieces. But I really appreciate each and every IR fans including myself for showing much concern on IR. But who is going to tie the bell in IR's neck? I hope somebody does that so that we can have a fruitful ending for this heartful discussion.
  
  Thanks and hope the best will happen to TFM
  
  
• From: Arasu Dakshin (@ 205-165-179.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Oct 6 04:54:19 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Everyone,
  After having read all the postings, I think I ought to say (write) something that I THINK !!
  IR does not have to prove anything anymore!! We, as human beings are kind of greedy to expect more and more from a man who has delivered the best on most occasions and for over 20 years.
  
  Frankly, to get the best of IR you need a very very creative director... people like Sridhar,Mahendran,Kamal,Balachander,Bharathiraja and to some extent Pratap Pothan.. OR have a theme based on music and there you go... Raja can deliver..
  
  How come Guru was so different from all this ?? Have we ever asked ourselves this question ??
  
  I am one of those IR fans right from Annakili ... To put in better perspective, I was in high school when he made his debut.. Having been with his music for over two decades, I am pleased with his work... I do not expect every album to be like the early 80's... but I am content with an occasional "Guru", "Yathramozhi", "KM"...
  
  Let the young MDs try their style... Let ARR repeat his interludes, let Deva do CTRL+DEL and CTRL+INS...you and I know that somebody has and will remain the best...
  
  Thanks guys
  
  

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