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Raja's theoritical Approach:

Topic started by D.Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-226.il.us.ibm.net) on Sun Oct 4 11:31:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Raja's theoritical Approach

Yesterday I was in a telephonic discussion with Shashi - (also a DF'er) about Raja's decline in the market.

Essence of our discussion:

We all know Raja writes his score without touching any instrument. This has paved a way for Raja to become very alogorithamic. He is forced into this as he is not hearing it, meaning his scores are very theoritical. A good western classical musician will predict Raja's score after hearing few bars.
He has to change this type of composing, he has to compose something new using his HEART instead of his BRAIN . We were able to calculate the bar lengths of the counter points and BGM that he would place, everything Proved to be very very theoritical approach.
Though theoritically scores are complicated, over a period of time it starts sounding the same for a musical illitrate (masses)

Many of his greatest fans are here this DF (including me), as a responsible fan we can find more about this and convey the message to him somehow.


Statutory Warning: This topic is not to hurt Raja's ablity, there is no doubt in his ablity .I know the fact writing theoritical music is not easy. Theoritically anything is complicated.


D.Srikanth

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 16:30:12 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Anand
  
  Sorry for posting twice. My second posting is more complete as I added another comment about an ARR song.
  
  Dear Ravi, if possible please erase my first posting.
  
  Anand once again I have never said that a good song can only be composed to prewritten lyrics. If you have a talented lyricist the vice versa you pointed out is difinitely possible. I totally agree that songs like 'vaanile thenila aaduthey paaduthey....' from Kakkichattai is creative thinking. Imagine the 'santham' for this song. It is difficult to come up with a verse to fit the musical composition no doubt and when lyricists come up with a good one you have to appreciate them.
  
  On the other hand, since Raja is talented enough to take a prewritten lyric and make it exciting he should do it more often--that is my opinion. In another thread Raja was apparently complaining about the situation in TFM world regarding lyrics. I agree that lyrics written currently are pathetic, but why not Raja say this--since the quality of lyrics are so poor and people have been blaming me for not being accomodative enough, from now onwards I will accept good prewritten lyrics at the same time encourage people who write good lyrics to my pre-composed songs. That would be my contribution to try to improve the current situation rather than complain about it.
  
  No doubt whoever does the latter job either the composer or lyricist have a tough job in their hands. I am just confident of Raja that he would live up to the challenge.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 16:44:13 EDT 1998
  
  Oops! I almost forgot.
  
  Anand regarding being more specific about 'the bar findings' and predictability, I am really sorry that it is difficult to write about it.
  
  If there is a new TFM Raja composition and if we hear it together (mind you first time for me but you may or may not have heard it)--for the most part by the note he uses to start the song you could predict the note the pallavi is going to start. Also, for the first line of the pallavi you can with about 70% of the time predict the number of lines in the pallavi and the note with which Raja is going to end the pallavi. You can predict most often the length, pattern of instrumentation, beat additions/variations, places where he is likely to switch to folk and the most likely note of the start of the anupallavi. Most of the time if he uses tabla you could predict the beat variation which is due after 2 lines of the anupallavi and reversing to the original beat after 2-4 more lines before it connects with the pallavi. The second stanza interlude most likely starts with a rythm peice and gradually other instruments are added and so on and so forth... till the end of the song. NOW MIND YOU THIS IS POSSIBLE IN THE SO CALLED MUNDANE 70% OF HIS SONGS. He still surprises me with his 30% although to a lesser extent and this is why I still remain an ardent Raja fan
  
  Bye
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ gate1.ca.us.ibm.com) on: Mon Oct 5 16:55:25 EDT 1998
  
  Anand Mahadevan:
  Any discussion needs a perspective. If some of you have to discuss the technicalities peacefully, some of us have to do the dirty work and bring the discussion into perspective, lest it take a prejudiced and biased path.
  
  I feel it would require a herculean effort to cite examples and thereby establish or debunk Srikanth's theory. As an alternative, I have tried to explain why Srikanth and Shashi might be misled into believing that IR's music is algorithmic and predictable. Unfortunately, it seems to have been lost amongst my other comments in defense of myself. To avoid repeating it, I would request Ravi to retain the relevant paragraph if he plans to delete the other postings.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova4.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 16:58:29 EDT 1998
  
  Shashi: I agree with you to some extent - maybe I differ in the percentages. IR can be highly predictable for his monotonous songs. While musical knowledge can help in placing the notes exactly, even the absence of it does not stop one from seeing the repetitions. He has these "techniques" which he uses often.
  
  But this is only for his monotonous songs. Very often, he surprises us with fresh notes.
  
  
• From: Dorairaj.Pichaiyan (@ gateway7.ey.com) on: Mon Oct 5 17:12:14 EDT 1998
  
  I totally agree with Shashi. Good Comments
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Mon Oct 5 17:25:38 EDT 1998
  
  HI guys,
  
  I have been folowing this thread and before I could even post one, there have been so many postings and I could muster up stuff only now. It is too bad the thread took a deviation along personal lines.
  
  First of all, the title of this thread says that there is a market decline in IR's music. Yes I completely agree with that. But is it suggesting that there is a quality loss. Then I have to disagree.
  
  To me IMO, yes a lot of songs in 90's of IR sounded stale. But he has seen the competition from ARR and that is why his music is fresh wonderful now. I am not going to cite KM as a turning point. To me there are much more wonderful songs of his.
  
  IMO, I like, love, KM, Kizakkum Merkkum (3 are refreshing - rest are OK), Kangalin VAarthaigal, (I did not like UK's song) Devadhai (great!!), Kaathal Rojave, (2 out of 7 are not great) Guru, (No words to describe), Dharma, KavalaiPadadhe Sagothara
  
  and
  
  I have not even heard Meetaatha veenai, mind you.
  
  I don't feel that his music is right now lacking anything at all. So it is difficult for me to identify with the topic in first place.
  
  But as to the original question of whether it is because of 'thinking' his songs,
  
  How does any composing work ?
  
  MD gets an idea and expresses it to his music group and conducts them to get a great song out of it, right ?
  
  Now expression of your thought to fellow musician is one of the major elements of the results, right ? So if there is going to be a communication gap in expressing it properly the result would suffer, right ?
  
  Now here is IR who wanted to do it in a systematic fashion and uses a particular way of communicating it to the musicaians which almost eliminates the communication gap between musicians and MD. (as it gives no room for any interpretation). But that requires an extraordinary capability of thinking the songs thru and he has it. So obviously he is doing it in an efficient way, right ? There is no two different opinions about efficiency right ?
  
  Point is if the quality (the result) suffers because of this.
  
  IMO, No!!!! I love his recent songs so much. Period.
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 18:01:52 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Mukund
  
  I agree with some of your thoughts. Off late Raja is trying to be more creative in some of the songs you have mentioned.
  
  Let me tell a couple of reasons. The beautiful guitar peice in the Kathunkuyile... song in Kizhakkum Merkkum is played by Prasana and I was there in Prasad Digital on the day of recording. It sounds unique because surprisingly Raja LET PRASANA TO IMPROVISE. One other thing. When I met Raja in his room he did have the Roland synth in front of him and was hooked up with it thru his headphones and was trying to play it and write his notes--just like any composer would do with the harmonium and lyrics. I am not saying its only because of these reasons that they sound great but it one of the welcome changes I would like to see since the output is great.
  
  There is no doubt about his efficiency--that is exactly what I said about my example with the obstacle course. It has become easy for Raja to do what he is used to doing and he does not want to try to complicate things for him. Unfortunately this is our loss. My dad used to say and I quote "the artist at the time of creating should suffer like having 'Prasava vedhanai'(labour pains as he trying to squeeze his thoughts and emotions with such concentration)--but it is all worth it in the end to see his creation see the limelight'
  
  Bye
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 18:27:59 EDT 1998
  
  I am not deleting anything in this thread. Let things remain as they are to serve as a reminder to people. :-(((((.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 205-110-99.ipt.aol.com) on: Mon Oct 5 19:46:31 EDT 1998
  
  Sashi:
  Could you tell me if you feel the same way after listening to IR's bass scores ? But please keep in mind that different does not always mean better ! This predictability that you talk about is what I and several million of Raaja's fans have been admiring as fluency in a song. This predictability is exactly why you see so many people complaining that ARR's songs are jarring. What you see as creativity is what I see as abaswaram. "Chikku Bukku Rayile" might have caught you in the throes of ecstasy ! But to me, it was all Thappu thaalam ! Even I can, to a certain extent, predict at which note the BGM is going to end and
  subsequently at which note the Charanam is going to start. Same is the case with Raaja's hummings that close a Charanam and start the Pallavi
  again. For example, the "Maasi Maasam" song. The charanam ends with a humming by Swarnalatha. Listen to this song closely - you will expect, nay, predict that the humming ends on Ma
  and start with Sa on "Maasi maasam...". Pay attention, once you realize that the note does not end in Ma, you will expect it to end in Sa (an
  octave lower). The note actually stops with Ga !
  
  Another example of IR's genius - "Paatu Thalaivan Paadinaal". Right through the pallavi you have a muted guitar in tandem with another synthesizer tone which I am unable to identify. Please tell me if you could predict the timing of those pieces without listening to them fully.
  
  Another interesting example - if you notice the closing of the 2nd interlude in "Nilave Vaa", you will notice a cello playing the notes - ma1 ga2 pa ma2 ma1 ga2 behind the violins for a couple of bars. Isn't that what creativity is ? You must give some credit to maintaining fidelity even while being creative. Abstract art was never my cup of tea !
  
  There are many such places where I have been astounded by IR's variations. I conclude by saying that your premise that IR uses an algorithm and does not compose spontaeneously is mistaken - at best it is conjecture.
  
  Note: I don't have any instrument on hand, except the Virtual Piano that comes along with Cakewalk Pro. Kindly bear with me if a couple of things are out of place (though I doubt it).
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 20:34:36 EDT 1998
  
  Dear Srinath
  
  You are right all the songs you mentioned does have surprises. But you are showing only the 30% which I have been talking about. I am astounded too by some of Raja's scores. But the fact remains there is a 70% which we conveniently dismiss. I dont want to talk about it by giving examples since I feel bad even writing about Raja. But because of need to explain myself I will do so.
  
  Starting with Pooncholai--total of 6 songs; one fantastic melody in hamsanandhi--Ganakuyile just superb. One ordinary number--Unperai Kettale by yugandran and pavadharini; One song by spb Chinnathambi barely makes the mark and 3 totally trash songs Nagma nagma...Kokkoga Kokku...and Pappa ruba
  
  Second example Kadavul--one great song by Amudha Enakku oru Raja...; one good-decent song by Arunmozhi & Sujatha Poovaram...; rest of the 4 songs are hardly worthwhile to talk about.
  
  These are just 2 random cassettes I pulled out of my collection to use as an example.
  
  This is what I mean when I talk about the 30-70% ratio. I have myself in a previous discussion mentioned that predictability can be equated to feeling of familiarity which gives a sense of security, which most people including myself like. But sometimes taking risks can bring thrills and unexpected adventures. With risks there is always a possibility of mishap too mind you. I am well aware of this and a lot of so called creativity by ARR has irritated me, but hey he is atleast experimenting.
  
  Most of the times walking under the umbrella is safe but occasionally walking in the rain is thrilling--but just for sometime--otherwise you are likely to get pneumonia.
  
  Finally chikubukku rayile has no abaswaram or thaputhalam I can see. It is a very different composition. A lot of people including myself would rather prefer more sensible lyrics than what that song has but the composition is sound.
  
  Bye
  
  

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