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Raja's theoritical Approach:

Topic started by D.Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-226.il.us.ibm.net) on Sun Oct 4 11:31:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Raja's theoritical Approach

Yesterday I was in a telephonic discussion with Shashi - (also a DF'er) about Raja's decline in the market.

Essence of our discussion:

We all know Raja writes his score without touching any instrument. This has paved a way for Raja to become very alogorithamic. He is forced into this as he is not hearing it, meaning his scores are very theoritical. A good western classical musician will predict Raja's score after hearing few bars.
He has to change this type of composing, he has to compose something new using his HEART instead of his BRAIN . We were able to calculate the bar lengths of the counter points and BGM that he would place, everything Proved to be very very theoritical approach.
Though theoritically scores are complicated, over a period of time it starts sounding the same for a musical illitrate (masses)

Many of his greatest fans are here this DF (including me), as a responsible fan we can find more about this and convey the message to him somehow.


Statutory Warning: This topic is not to hurt Raja's ablity, there is no doubt in his ablity .I know the fact writing theoritical music is not easy. Theoritically anything is complicated.


D.Srikanth

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova4.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 14:50:25 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: It was in a very bad taste when you said "music is not meant for you".
  
  Argue this out- why does IR come up with more inspired compositions for better directors when all he doez is obey some finite state machine, how do you explain the out of the world pieces he has given which cannot but have come from the heart? And he continues to do so, its not that he has stopped.
  
  Also, I was joking earlier, but am serious now: why don't you become a Raja?
  
  I have to conclude, and excuse me for this, that you are a hc MSV fan and pained with IR for removing him from the scene. This is inspite of all the IR cassettes you have . Why, even I have ARR's cassettes, but I have a sentimental feeling for IR and hence, am depressed that ARR dethroned him(although I don't sling as much mud on ARR as you do on IR)
  
  I think you unconsciously feel this and all your pro-IR statements are born out of CONSCIOUS impartiality.
  
  Anyway, what did I say to make you throw acid as you did?
  
  Even I can do what you did. I can start a thread saying "MSV's flaws", criticise him left and right (which I haven't done in the thread I started although, except for a few numbers, I have never been impressed by his music), and when someone begins to defend that, say "Music is not for you".
  
  How easy, how algorithmic!!
  
  ANYWAY, I'M SORRY IF I HURT YOU, THAT WAS NOT MY INTENTION.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova4.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 14:54:21 EDT 1998
  
  Guys: Why don't you begin to contribute to the list of MSV's dabba songs in the "Did MSV have any defects" thread?
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova4.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 15:15:42 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: You claim that you started this thread with the best of intentions. Anybody can read what you have written at the top and see through anti-IR sentiments. It should have been obvious to you right from the beginning that you will get strong responses if you started like this.
  
  And its not that you haven't already experienced this. You started "Raja's dabba songs" and got a taste of how personal these topics become. Yet in spite of this experience you went ahead with another controversial topic.
  
  And now you sign off with a clear implication that you are Mr.Objective, all of us are kids with lollipops in our mouths, mad fans of IR who are "not fit for music". Is this fair? I have observed this tendency among several people here. They sign off an argument with a "I am more reasonable than you" note. That's bad, ok.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova4.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 15:20:16 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: Also, the statutory warning you have put up is not good enough.
  
  Even I had put up a statement in the "MSV's defects" thread saying I had nothing against him. Yet you yourself said out there that I was going against him and that you were defending him. So this statutory warning has no meaning whatsoever, given the prior statements.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova4.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 15:21:25 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: The number of postings I'm making addressed to you should you how hurting your comments have been.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 15:52:45 EDT 1998
  
  Hi everybody
  
  I am quite disturbed by the amount of personal attack that is going on in this thread. Please understand that this is a discussion group and not an arguement group. If Srikanth & myself had an opinion which we wanted to share here, it is only because of our assumption that this forum encourages such participation. If there are other opinions (which there is bound to be) they are welcome and should be put forth in a way that should not personally hurt others (I am pained at Srikanth for what he wrote and also others for their language)
  
  Now, the only other suggestion I could glean from the above discussion is to provide Raja with more challenging, interesting, creative situations--for example as Rajiv Anchal did in Guru; this I agree is definitely one other way of stimulating his creativity (I agree with Gopal in this case)
  
  Also Anand Mahadevan asked if I can come up with more specific examples of compositions to prewritten lyrics (and be less vague). I am not sure what he means when Guru was composed to prewritten lyrics (that is how I interpret his last sentence)--exactly my point--there is more creativity, surprises and innovativeness in Guru I agree. The reason I believe it is more creative is Raja had to incorporate the lyrics into his musical thoughts and the end result is sheer excellence!
  
  Anand Mahadevan also mentions about the staleness of Raja's music in the early to mid 90's. As an ardent Raja fan I have noticed it too and that is why this discussion was started. Also as Kaushik mentions Raja definitely composes at different levels for different producers/directors. Overall since there are more no. of producers/directors who bore him to sleep than excite him to be creative the overall result is about 70% of his songs are mundane and only 30% of them show his class. All the examples mentioned (which include the telugu, Kannada, tamil songs) by others in this thread I agree are truly fantastic melodies, however they constitute the 30% of his production.
  
  Finally two other examples of songs composed to prewritten lyrics(other than Guru which Anand M has already mentioned) which show the spontaneous/non-algorithmic approach.
  
  1. Manadhil urudhi vendum... in Sindhubhairavi; listen to the wonderful way Raja has handled this peice. Each line of the song is unique and the flow is extrordinary. There is no way one could judge the way the song was going to conclude by just listening to the opening bars. He surprises us suddenly by varying the flow the song at the line 'mann payanura vendum' and almost from nowhere introduces this complex brigha in the line 'vaanagam ingu thenpada vendum'. He ends the song very solemly yet strongly in the lines 'unmai nindrida vendum'.
  
  2. In Suhasini manirathnams serial 'Penn' the last episode where suhasini herself acts in a character is another example where Raja shows his class. When she passes away and Parthiban(her husband) finds out and is shocked by it there is Raja singing 'Vaarthai thavarivittai Adi kannamma..' in the Background. This gradually increases in strength and takes over the whole situation as rest of the proceedings (her last rites/everything) are down without dialogue but with this song in the background. When I first saw this the experience was so powerfull that my hairs were standing on their end. This is one other example of what Raja is capable of when he is challenged with prewritten lyrics.
  
  Anyway hope this discussion takes on a much milder and saner course.
  
  Bye
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Mon Oct 5 16:14:02 EDT 1998
  
  shashi,
  I was trying to get this thread more objective by being specific by sighting GURU as an example. Guess was trying to probe into your thoughts more as to what U meant by prewritten GOOD lyrics.I sighted an example and U have sighted one but I beg to differ that a good song can only be composed for prewritten lyrics.Well,this throws up a lot of challenge to the composer but also vice-versa is true.A lyricist can exhibit his talent by fitting approp words into a melody.I guess its two pronged.
  I also do'nt agree that raja songs are predictable.If you could elucidate more on your bar findings,I will more than pleased to comment.
  My remark on your vagueness stems from your generic statements.I would say when someone talks technical,one should sight examples and if possible an explanation.This can enlighten folks in this forum and can put this thread and forum into a meaningful direction.
  
  Ravi:I urge you to expunge srikanth's and srinath's personal diatribe from this thread.
  
  srikanth:"maachan, nee ennum maarave ellada".Am still waiting for your jazz chords
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Mon Oct 5 16:14:38 EDT 1998
  
  Hi everybody
  
  I am quite disturbed by the amount of personal attack that is going on in this thread. Please understand that this is a discussion group and not an arguement group. If Srikanth & myself had an opinion which we wanted to share here, it is only because of our assumption that this forum encourages such participation. If there are other opinions (which there is bound to be) they are welcome and should be put forth in a way that should not personally hurt others (I am pained at Srikanth for what he wrote and also others for their language)
  
  Now, the only other suggestion I could glean from the above discussion is to provide Raja with more challenging, interesting, creative situations--for example as Rajiv Anchal did in Guru; this I agree is definitely one other way of stimulating his creativity (I agree with Gopal in this case)
  
  Also Anand Mahadevan asked if I can come up with more specific examples of compositions to prewritten lyrics (and be less vague). I am not sure what he means when Guru was composed to prewritten lyrics (that is how I interpret his last sentence)--exactly my point--there is more creativity, surprises and innovativeness in Guru I agree. The reason I believe it is more creative is Raja had to incorporate the lyrics into his musical thoughts and the end result is sheer excellence!
  
  Anand Mahadevan also mentions about the staleness of Raja's music in the early to mid 90's. As an ardent Raja fan I have noticed it too and that is why this discussion was started. Also as Kaushik mentions Raja definitely composes at different levels for different producers/directors. Overall since there are more no. of producers/directors who bore him to sleep than excite him to be creative the overall result is about 70% of his songs are mundane and only 30% of them show his class. All the examples mentioned (which include the telugu, Kannada, tamil songs) by others in this thread I agree are truly fantastic melodies, however they constitute the 30% of his production.
  
  Finally two other examples of songs composed to prewritten lyrics(other than Guru which Anand M has already mentioned) which show the spontaneous/non-algorithmic approach.
  
  1. Manadhil urudhi vendum... in Sindhubhairavi; listen to the wonderful way Raja has handled this peice. Each line of the song is unique and the flow is extrordinary. There is no way one could judge the way the song was going to conclude by just listening to the opening bars. He surprises us suddenly by varying the flow the song at the line 'mann payanura vendum' and almost from nowhere introduces this complex brigha in the line 'vaanagam ingu thenpada vendum'. He ends the song very solemly yet strongly in the lines 'unmai nindrida vendum'.
  
  2. In Suhasini manirathnams serial 'Penn' the last episode where suhasini herself acts in a character is another example where Raja shows his class. When she passes away and Parthiban(her husband) finds out and is shocked by it there is Raja singing 'Vaarthai thavarivittai Adi kannamma..' in the Background. This gradually increases in strength and takes over the whole situation as rest of the proceedings (her last rites/everything) are down without dialogue but with this song in the background. When I first saw this the experience was so powerfull that my hairs were standing on their end. This is one other example of what Raja is capable of when he is challenged with prewritten lyrics.
  
  Not for comparison but just another example of surprises came to my mind as I was writing the above part. In ARR's Uyire/Dilse, which I accept did not excite me as some of his previous compositions there is one such example of a surprise. Towards the end of the song Nenjinile/Jiya jale (whichever you are familiar with) when Janki/Lata take on a kind of 'Alapanai' of the word Nenjinile/Jiya jale with the chorus in the background at the very last line ARR does something very interesting and totally unexpected. He introduces a R1(chinna ri) which is not present anywhere in the whole of the song. Why did he do it? God only knows. But how does it feel? The first time quite frankly shocking (as it is an anyaswara); second time--hmm..interesting; subsequent times--very creative ( it almost feels as if he suddenly changed the dimension you were in, at the very last instant). This variation I think must have been a random accident--either when he played it he did not use his pitch-bender completely or somebody just played this by mistake or Lata/Janaki improvised spontaneously. This would have been a taboo in a Raja song. I agree mentally it should not be there; it is not in the raga; but just listen to it without worrying about rules/regulations--it is just straight from the heart (I am not sure if it is ARR's, Lata's, Janaki's or some anonymous guy). But whos' ever idea it is I salute ARR for keeping it in the song
  
  
  Anyway hope this discussion takes on a much milder and saner course.
  
  Bye
  
  
• From: Srinivas (@ scproxy3.sc.intel.com) on: Mon Oct 5 16:20:50 EDT 1998
  
  I do not agree that " composing for prewritten lyrics" was a significant factor for the excellence of GURU. IMHO it was the totally different and thought provoking story-line, set in an entirely different era, with the strong moral message that inspired IR to come up with the wonderful music. The theme required music that would capture a BYGONE ERA and Maestro does it VIVIDLY.
  It is a plain CONJECTURE to say that it was the lyrics that made the music great.
  Not just Guru : There used to be a serial in DD some-time back called "Bible ki Kahaniyan". Karthick Raja scored the Background music for this. The reason why I am writing about this is because it required music that would portray some PRIMITIVE civilisations. And KR immediatly came up with some great bamboo flute pieces that brought the situations to life.
  And Guru is great more for the spectacular Western Classical interludes that it had than just the tunes that were set to the prewritten lyrics.
  
  Please enlighten me as to what part the lyrics
  had to play in the creation of the interludes??
  
  IMHO, it is the quality of the story, the directors and the emotions portrayed in the films that have had the most significant impact on Maestro's music.
  
  He came up with great symbolic pieces even without the support of lyrics in How to Name it and Nothing but Wind. So, I find it very difficult to digest the stmt that Raja will come up with better music if he composes for pre-written lyrics.
  
  

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