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Let's Reveal MSV, IR and ARR style of music..and strength

Topic started by paran (@ 203.123.16.77) on Tue Jul 15 03:36:08 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi All,

I think we had seen enough of MD-bashing forums..
now....with respect let's talk about the strength of these legends of TFM....

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: AV (@ 132.216.68.122) on: Wed Jul 23 00:04:15 EDT 2003
  
  Incidently Salilda, though tunes are ever lasting in memory, he used those popular tunes as is in Bengali,Tamil,MY, while IR though he repeats uses the tunes for other language, he adds different elements so though the songs sound same but not exactly.
  ==============================================
  
  I would like to differ on this. Salilda more often than not changed the orchestration/ interludes/ speed etc. of the tune, when he recycled his tunes across languages. The pathos-filled solo by PS in Raagam is a remake of a fairly happier Bengali adhunik solo. Even the Hindi song "O Sajana Barkha Bahaar Aayi" and its Bengali equivalent "Na Jeo Naa" differ considerably in the interlude music. There are many many more such examples. In fact IMO exact copies would be rare.
  
  
  
  
• From: Speaker (@ 203.126.142.232) on: Wed Jul 23 01:41:33 EDT 2003
  
  isai_nanban >> IR looking for MSV for inspiration?? I am not interested in argument. I respect your OPINION. This is not badmouthing MSV. MSV gets undue accolades. It is part of the culture give credit to oldies/non competitors as mark of respect. If IR retires, even ARR would say IR music is the best thing he ever heard. MSV survival & popularity was 8th wonder. He is highly glorified MD.AIMO.
  
  
• From: paran (@ 203.123.16.165) on: Wed Jul 23 02:09:25 EDT 2003
  
  Dear Speaker,
  
  r u by any chance a physcic?..
  i wanted to say that man....
  
  
• From: Speaker (@ 203.126.142.232) on: Wed Jul 23 02:26:18 EDT 2003
  
  Physcic = No idea about this!!!!
  Paran - I am sure you become some thing like that after Boys album. We will take it up on differnt thread.
  I know i am going to receive all kinds of post now. I dont want to disturb the flow of the thread. I shared my opinion. I am of the view MSV-TKR should be referred instead of MSV. Second, the way people scrutinize IR music, has never been done on MSV music. MSV was well supported by KD, MGR. IR himself has very high regard for MSV & I have very very high regard for IR. I am not changing my opinion and for just continuting this thread, I would say sorry for expressing my opinion.
  
  
• From: Paran (@ 203.123.16.165) on: Wed Jul 23 02:40:08 EDT 2003
  
  Hey Speaker...
  i am not the black sheep ard here....
  i never wanted to create havoc in this Thread, of course..as I'm the creator of the thread man...
  
  Anyway...what I wanted to say is that...when someone is no longer ard, or in competition...they work will be highly appreciate...
  
  for example Marc Vivien Foe..the Machester City footballer..once he's gone..everyone says..he's a good player...he did this..and that...but he was ard...hardly ppl know him...
  
  anyway..that's the human nature
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Jul 23 13:15:10 EDT 2003
  
  isai_nanban..can you compare and contrast MSV and IR's style in detail. IR has been playing MSV's tunes all his pre-movie life. I can sware he knows every song note by note. Early part of his career, many songs of his had clear shades of MSV in tune (like in gayathri). He also purposely did songs (just a few) in MSV style for shivaji/'poor mans TMS (MV)'. Only when he started going deep into WCM, did he play around with the tune to add counterpoints/harmony etc. Also, when the rural subjects (like bharathiraja) and modern subjects (like in sigappu rOjakkal) came in the sandhams were shortened/simplified and new IR style evolved. IR has casually and seriously given credits to MSV. Like "without him I would not know how to do a film song".
  Or atleast this is my perception. And please note, you and anybody will be more knowledgeable than me on this topic of music. Just software alone is enough to strain my pea-brain.
  
  
• From: Mythila (@ 208.220.245.72) on: Thu Jul 24 05:18:47 EDT 2003
  
  Kiru, I agree with what you say. Atleast around 76-78, IR's style had lots of MSV hues like - heavy melody in tunes, cacophony of musical intruments in the interludes (Eg Kannan oru kaikuzhandhai, Chella pillai Saravanan, Ore naal unnai naan, Oru kaadhal devadhai , Deepam songs) . With the ascent of Bharathiraja, Mahendran, (Remember, these directors started improving on visuals, cryptic dialogues)IR must have started weaving his own trademark style.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Thu Jul 24 12:13:15 EDT 2003
  
  Mythila, cacophony is not the right word. Simple, is. The interludes were apt and much simpler. Grander arrangements were seen in the early 80s.
  Kannann oru kaikuzhandhai actually had excellent interludes. In one of the sapthaswaram programmes on Sun TV, Radhakarishnan, a flute player for 30 years in TFM played the entire first interlude of that song on flute when asked to play a piece. It was wonderful to listen to.
  
  Its sad to note that MSV is being branded as overrated here.
  The man re-invented himself many times all the way from Devdas(1952) to Ninaithaale Inikkum(1980) to Mella thirandhadhu kadhavu(1985). Thats over 30 years.
  
  
  
• From: Jag (@ 35.9.26.160) on: Thu Jul 24 13:21:10 EDT 2003
  
  vijay,
  Melli thiradhandu kadhavu, is it right to say that the tunes sounded better due to superior orchestrization or is it the other way around?
  
  What about Salil Chowdary who was more or less a contemporary? He had complex orchestrization.
  MSV emphasized more on lyrical quality and ease of listening and hence the simple orchestrization, and of course lyricists had more importance during his time. I agree MSV is not overrated but some people like KVM are definitely underrated. Even with so much output in tunes by MSV/TKR and KVM, IR could still outdo MSV and give something different in tunes not just music. It just shows how versatile IR is. I did love some MSV comebacks during IR's time.
  
  Was Devdas a contemporary of the ANR's telugu version at the same time? The telugu version had mind blowing songs.
  
  Mythila,
  something like "sendhoorapoove.." from Padhinaru V
  definitely stands out of MSV's kind of tunes. Maybe IR just did not want to shake up the whole industry at once :>
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.132.97) on: Thu Jul 24 15:47:21 EDT 2003
  
  Jag,
  
  Maybe IR just did not want to shake up the whole industry at once.
  
  But his annakili shook the whole industry already. having done this there was nothing more to shake up. all his earlier compositions were only experiments till he came up with a unique style of his own in late 70's or early 80's.
  
  there was much for MSV to learn frm IR.not the other way around and i think all late 70's composition of MSV had IR shade
  
  BTW i feel IR is still experimenting and evolving in time.
  
  and if they r going to write the history of TFM it wud be apt to term as BIR - IR - AIR.
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Jul 24 21:11:14 EDT 2003
  
  People..whatever it is ..MSV is a giant and a pioneer. There are people like KVM who could do divine melodies (like Jag says, he is underrated) but MSV was the most modern of all our MDs. He also worked with good lyricists and people like MGR and so got more hits. But the point is, he moved the trend towards a more western classical approach. This is what IR picked up and ran with. No wonder IR never forgets to credit him for this. In any field, you need somebody to set the direction. Mind you the direction MSV set was way classical and enriches our music. So he gets all the respect including from IR.
  
  Anyways, I originally wanted to point out to isai_nanban that it is very difficult to add too many backing instruments to a melody. This is what MSV did most part. But IR wanted to experiment more even with vocals. This is the reason singers for IR are instructed to stick exactly to the notes (like in a Western composition). If it were just rhythm following the singers, the singers can do anything, but other instruments are playing harmony. So they cannot improvise. Imagine what would happen in the song - nee paathi ..naan paathi kannE..the bass guitarist would be lost if the singers started improvising.
  
  The point is with IR we are getting equal amount of nuances/variations only that they are played by instruments than the main melody/vocals alone.
  
  
• From: Music4ever (@ 165.121.130.6) on: Thu Jul 24 22:25:50 EDT 2003
  
  Mellisai Mannar over-rated? TFM offers new vistas, some of them providing a liberal dose of the ludicrous, everyday! Here is one MSV tune that I love:
  
  Kamban Emandhan
  ILam kanniyarai oru malar-endranE
  Karpanai seidhanE
  Kamban Emandhan
  
  What sweet music and superb lyrics. Keeping it simple all the way.
  
  Even today the song "Maan kanda sorgangal" is irresistible.
  
  MSV all the way.
  
  BTW, I was listening to the album Vandemataram by ARR. There is this superb tune that goes "Only you". En seviyil andha paadal reengaaram ittu kondE irrukindradhu ippavum kooda.
  
  
• From: Jag (@ 35.9.26.160) on: Thu Jul 24 22:35:20 EDT 2003
  
  Tut tut.. examples, poor TKR is left out the fray and so is G Ramanathan and C Subbaraman
  
  Watch out its slowly degenerating into TKR/MSV vs IR vs ARR .... What a sandwich for IR :)
  
  
• From: RR (@ 203.199.213.3) on: Thu Jul 24 22:46:45 EDT 2003
  
  Music4ever: I liked your choice of words :"liberal dose of ludicrous" MSV's detractors should at least give an outside chance to the possibility that some one like the music-savvy MGR, who could have pretty much chose anyone to score music for his films, backed MSV
  because he truly believed MSV could deliver.
  And deliver he did right until "maduraiyai meetta..".
  I was listening to a program on the TV where some Carnatic experts were analyzing the use of "sindhu
  bhairavi" in film music. After playing many songs they said: here is a refreshingly different handling of "sindhu bhairavi" raag. And the song was "Aadaludan.. " by mSV. One can give countless other examples.
  RR
  
  
• From: Jag (@ 35.9.26.160) on: Thu Jul 24 23:04:29 EDT 2003
  
  MSV's merit: being in TFM with MGR
  IR's demerit: not being in TFM when MGR was in his peak
  
  jes' kidding, no offense. how can someone detract with so many bigwigs around :)
  
  
• From: isainanban (@ 68.77.29.44) on: Thu Jul 24 23:45:58 EDT 2003
  
  Speaker and Paran: u must read k's responses a few times. As I said, I've done some good amount of musical listening acrss the board. Eventually MSV emerged as a surprise to me.
  
  A song that first caught my attention was: Kamban Yemandhan.... Then I revisited Ninaithale Innikkum songs every single one of them, then listened USValiban - the song Inbamey Yendhan Peyr Vallalo.... (now try finding atleast an amazing as this one from any composer including IR. Then, listen to Andaman Kadhali songs, go to Gauravam, revisit Naalai Namadhey.... These compositions are worht their weight in priceless stones. Today, auctioneers like Sothebys Christies and people who value the "nataraja" statues (cosmic dance by the Cholas) find it the most amazing of all sculptures. I put MSV' tunes right there. IR who has thousands of mind-boggling "compositions" but had to rely heavily on orchestrational genius and ideas to give a solid backing to his tunes, but MSV did not need to.
  
  as i said, to get to the level of MSV' thought process, requires such musical maturity in the listener and I feel MGR had such a deep understanding, so also did Sivaji. The standards were very traditional before IR' arrival. So, we could see melodious compositions from MSV' peers.
  
  All I would say is start examining: Inbamey Enthan Pery Vallalo and from there go on to any other MSV song.. and leave it and get back to it again after a few months or years. The difference of MSV from IR will be recognizable. (Forget orchestrational ideas, for which IR has no comparison even in the Western world. Talk the fascinating and deep Indian musical tradition on which MSV steeps on top. )
  
  
• From: Paran (@ 203.123.16.165) on: Thu Jul 24 23:46:52 EDT 2003
  
  In terms of succesful partnership....
  i think no one can beat IR...
  
  1) IR - MSV
  2) IR - MGR (? can confirm)
  3) IR - Sivaji
  4) IR - Bharatiraja
  5) IR - Maniratnam
  6) IR - Rajni
  7) IR - Kamal
  8) IR - Bala
  9) IR - Balumahendra
  10) IR - Vairamuthu
  11) IR - Vaali
  12) IR - P.Vasu
  
  Any other notable Combos?.....
  
  

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