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Let's Reveal MSV, IR and ARR style of music..and strength

Topic started by paran (@ 203.123.16.77) on Tue Jul 15 03:36:08 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi All,

I think we had seen enough of MD-bashing forums..
now....with respect let's talk about the strength of these legends of TFM....

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Jag (@ 35.9.26.160) on: Sun Jul 20 22:13:03 EDT 2003
  
  Isai_nanban,
  Thanks for the comments and info on Salil Chowdary. Its probably very difficult to express one's feelings about songs and I think you have done it quite well about MSV and IR's songs. I also feel that MSV's tunes have a lot of depth in them and the feeling lingers on the mind for a long time.
  
  AV
  Thanks for the links and information on the movies. It was quite amazing reading the article by Padma. There was a whole lot of information in that page as well. I am surprised to know that even with someone like Salil Chowdary hindi films composers could not pepetuate the art of BGM. He was quite a trend setter as I can see. The reason I mentioned SRajeshwara rao, is that he was a genius and definitely a trend setter. He was one person who could do amazing tunes and cool orchestrization which elevated the movies to a totally different level. But I must admit I have to see a whole lot of Salilda's music before passing judgments. I loved Chemmen very much and some other hindi movie which I had watched when I was 10. (my dad is a trivia whiz in old hindi movies and I knew many composers like hemant kumar, SDB, SC, LP while I was in fifth class!)
  
  Jag
  
  
• From: Speaker (@ 203.126.142.232) on: Sun Jul 20 22:41:38 EDT 2003
  
  MSV & TKR - comparison. There is whole lot of discussion in separate thread. Based on this, there is a feeling that 27 films after msv-tkr split, was in the name of msv though the music was done by the duo. There is strong evidence by troupe members and style of the composition that they could be very well done by the duo. KD,MGR had big role in promoting msv. Also MGR is a very good task master and get the best out of MD. Sankar-Ganesh duo some of the best songs are for MGR. In one of the interview, they indeed mentioned that MGR got the tunes from them rather than they did that.MSV is glorified MD and strongly supported by MGR, KD, TKR & Big banners. (Ofcourse ever wondered how could he muster support!). IR is THE BEST MD EVER IN TFM, HE IS THE LEGEND. These are not just jingoistic statement. The proof is just as already one poster said, he only made music as the key driver of MD, in place of dialogues.
  
  
• From: Speaker (@ 203.126.142.232) on: Sun Jul 20 22:43:18 EDT 2003
  
  pl. read music as the key driver of FILMS in place of dialogues.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 65.142.149.138) on: Sun Jul 20 22:52:50 EDT 2003
  
  These are two things - capability to perform and the actual performance output. If we analyse each of the three most popular TFM MD's with respect to these two things, my feeings are:
  
  MSV - Had a good capability to perform and the actual performance just about met that (I would rate the capabilty / performance more on the melody front, relatively less on the orchestration and much less on the BGM. With the quantity of output as well as the long time frame he operated with quality diminishing in later years, we can easily prove my statement)
  
  IR - Had great capability to perform but the actual performance was not even 50% of that (In spite of close to 800 movies, I have always a feeling that this man can do more, often he leaves just traces of his capability keeping much as buffer stock and make people long for more)
  
  ARR - Had limited capability to perform but the actual performance output was many times that, thanks to hard work, polishing, borrowing etc. This is evident from the repetitiveness within a limited quantum of output and the time taken for each. I can only say he is much overrated.
  
  All IMHO. I'm open to discuss this point, only availability of time could be a problem.
  
  
• From: RR (@ 203.199.213.4) on: Mon Jul 21 03:27:40 EDT 2003
  
  Speaker, Reg. MSV-TKR comparison, the issue of style can be misleading. If you loook at the thread about MSV-TKR split, those claiming TKR had an equal role in the duo's music claim that songs immediately after the split (such as Kalangarai Vilakkam etc.) were inferior and distinct from the duo's style. The person claiming
  that TKR was the sole contributor argues that movies immediately after the (official) split such as Kalangai Vilakkam etc. were also scored by TKR and that they are very similar in style and melody to the earlier ones!! May be a close "musical" look would reveal when the shift or split! occurred.
  RR
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ 203.125.141.2) on: Mon Jul 21 05:01:08 EDT 2003
  
  I wonder if this is ever shared
  
  
  http://www.studio-systems.com/Playback&Fastforward/PlayBack/1988/July/80July.htm
  
  
• From: AV (@ 132.206.124.143) on: Mon Jul 21 09:14:16 EDT 2003
  
  That link was a find! AFAIK, Ilayaraaja had also worked as an assistant under Salilda for some time. The two have very high regard for each other. I have also read interviews by Ilayaraaja speaking very highly of MSV, Naushad and C Ramchandra.
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Jul 22 13:39:55 EDT 2003
  
  isai_nanban, has some points regarding the comparison between MSV and IR. But I think he might be missing something. He is comparing the main melody (vocals) alone. This will surely put IR in an unfavorable position. IR's song as a whole should be compared. He has prelude, chords/harmony, interlude and conclusion. All these are much more complicated than his predecessors. The variations/nuances in the melody are not just sung by the main singer, but they are played by instruments as well.
  From day one, TFM MDs goal was to do a indian classical/western classical fusion. I was watching some very old songs on Sun TV yesterday and I heard cello, guitar chords etc in them. But all these MDs (like KVM) made songs the indian classical way. Even though they attempted to add lots of western classical (eg MSV) stuff into their song. IR is the first MD to develop the songs in a western classical fashion. He is also an authentic indian composer, because he uses raagams as the base and sticks to one in a composition. Take for example a simple rustic melody like indha maan, undhan sondha maan. Do not concentrate on the main vocals, listen to all the instruments in this song. You will understand what I mean.
  Other non-european countries (like China or Japan)have composers who work solely using the western classical idiom. IR is the only one in India. If he had released his symphony, it would have made it official. But anybody following his BGM work will attest to this fact.
  
  
• From: isai_nanban (@ 68.77.14.73) on: Tue Jul 22 21:59:39 EDT 2003
  
  AV, Jag: I have discovered MSV the last and only in the last few years, since during 70s i started my discovery of TFM, I have been only idolizing IR and like a fanatic never let anyone tell me that someone else' music is also good. if there is one composer whose songs I can sing in a totally immersed kind of fashion while walkin or in the bathroom and feelin totally lost in the vast ambience of each song, it is only MSVs song. IR is a culmination in my opinion of all the best established by SDB, SJaikishen and Salil... But MSV stands alone and only RDB has ever come any close. It is a matter of approach. IR never believed in giving the control to the singer. MSV' approach was that melody lines you can live in, float. ride on, swing in etc.... IR has gone several levels beyond what MSV could not achieve in his approach, that is creating idioms, extraordinary short themes, inexpressible moods in a musical capsule, mind boggling rhythmic maneoveurs and propounded "theorems" thru HTNI, NBW etc... I24Hrs, etc... there is no way one can achieve something like that unless he eats, sleeps music for a thousand years!
  
  k, I am not just talkin of the singing part, it is quite difficult explain and analyse a certain element of a musical style' personality. In western music, if you heard an album called "Call Me Irresponsible" by Andy Williams you can understand what MSV achieved with considerable ease and to great effect.
  
  Speaker: MSV did not need western orchestration, it would'v been a great loss of one of the greatest musical legacies if MSV had been the first to adopt western orchestration.
  
  About Salilda, i think he was definitely one of the significant influences on IR, it is written all over IR' approach, style and orchestration.
  
  
• From: Speaker (@ 203.126.142.232) on: Tue Jul 22 23:25:07 EDT 2003
  
  xml>>I agree with that IR could not do now
  But I dont agree with you. Reasons
  a) Just look at instrumental piece of Iniya Nathi - Manasellam - Anytime I would go for this than so called Boom boom (Its nothing to do with youth - It simply the music that matters)
  b) After K and others highlight instrument details in a song, I look for more of these. Thanks K for this. IR most of the recent songs have got very rich instrument interludes, which on its own qualify for great song. Take Kaakka kaakka in JG - Most of them would brush aside this song as junk, but to me the start is superb, 1st half mainly wonderful on beats, seamlessly integrated with indian (Thavil?) at later part. Enjoyable song.
  c) Only difference between IR earlier songs and recent songs is most of the earlier songs the album is a full hit. 6-8 songs (some of them dont even come on screen) great pieces. But now almost all recent album (ex - kasi,azhagi,Bharathi) have got one or two very good songs but not as a whole album. This IMHO, is driven by business reasons. IR must have realised, giving all good songs in one pack may not make economic sense.
  Incidently Salilda, though tunes are ever lasting in memory, he used those popular tunes as is in Bengali,Tamil,MY, while IR though he repeats uses the tunes for other language, he adds different elements so though the songs sound same but not exactly.
  
  
• From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Jul 22 23:27:53 EDT 2003
  
  isai_nanban..I thought IRs song was structured after MSV's. The prelude/interlude ..the rhythm changes (different rhythms for pallavi/charanam/interludes etc). Maybe the style is that of Salilda's (I haven't heard much of his).
  I dont know how much lyrics had a role in you liking the songs of MSV. Today, I heard an IR song..the lyrics goes like 'naan yaaru enakkEthum theriyalaiyE enakkEtta naan solla vazhiyillE....ennai peththa rasaiyyannu pEru vecha aathathaan ponna petha santhoshathil pOnal amma kaatha thaan' obviously written by IR. This song has a nice loop like rhythm throughout. This is surely a fantastic melody..The lyrics are good ..but imagine the same idea executed by kannadhaasan !!!!
  Also, notice MSV was setting prewritten lyrics to tune. So the lyricists also must have had a good music sense.
  BTW, your point "IR is a culmination in my opinion of all the best established by SDB, SJaikishen and Salil... " is absolutely true. IRs music is a tribute to these masters and proves that they are all pioneers and people with vision.
  
  
• From: isai_nanban (@ 68.77.14.73) on: Tue Jul 22 23:59:44 EDT 2003
  
  k, IR' song structure has hardly any roots in MSV as far as I can see. It looked as if he felt IR wanted to better SDB, SC & SJ. Parallely we see Ravindra Jain operating in the north with quite similar motifs.
  
  My introspection on these styles does find vindication. Look at IR, always prasing RDB any chance he gets more than any composer. And, wait a minute here: whom do we have IR seeking guidance and inspiration from: (from the days of Paruvamey Pudhiya Paadal Paada?) It is MSV, I believe IR has MSV around him at his house very often.
  
  Personally, I feel that IR himself would acknowledge that the composer whose genius who overwhelms him with emotions is MSV. It is my guess. Personally, it took me like 30 years to understand music and that is why I hold MSV in such high regard since i took me a lot of maturity or cycles of learning to get to really see where MSV went and noone else could go. Musical expression of a composer can easily reflect a personality of that composer. If that personality found expression in an actor or painter, i can tell you that no actor or painter like MSV ever existed!
  
  one interesting article here:
  
  http://www.telugufilmserver.com/Inteview_vijaya_lakshmi__Anchor.shtml
  
  
  

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