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Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid..

Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Fri Aug 27 12:06:57 EDT 1999
  
  rameshji :It is ill fate that IR is stuck between MSV and ARR and poor IR Fans get blamed for all the arguments and disputes in this forum.
  
  raja_vetti: In the name of discussing about MDs, we are actually arguing over our egos! We are really not discussing which MD is better, but underneath, we are trying to see, who gives up first in this argument! That seem to be the aim here.
  
  perfect. well put.
  
  
• From: !975_born_and_still_ignorant (@ nat135022.ericy.com) on: Fri Aug 27 12:08:00 EDT 1999
  
  Lili Lili looo looo.........ooops this was done by an MD previously in the yr 1949. Sorry .....
  
  
• From: rum..pum..pumm (@ mec-xckt-auth103.mecnet.com) on: Fri Aug 27 12:10:38 EDT 1999
  
  Are u trying to give lighter vein to the thread?
  
  
• From: paamaran (@ adsl-216-103-209-54.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) on: Fri Aug 27 14:24:20 EDT 1999
  
  Coming back to Srikanth's questioning of "10 New things IR has done to TFM" - i can suggest one - he was the first (appada!) to get Presidential Award for Music in TFM.
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Fri Aug 27 14:26:29 EDT 1999
  
  pAmaran :
  KVM won it for kandhan karuNai before IR.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Fri Aug 27 15:16:39 EDT 1999
  
  raaja_vetti,
  You are absolutely right about our egos. People who know music/musical techniques should explain the nuances of particular MDs style/wont to others. After all we are here to appreciate music and get more joy in our leisure and forget our work stress and stuff.
  I read a magazine called 'Stereophile'. This magazine reviews high end audio systems. The letters to the editor to this magazine are very vocal. People will be complaining that a particular CD player (costing $3000 or so) sucks etc. A reader from Phillippines or some asian country wrote in wondering why people are fighting like this over music. When music is supposed to make some persons soft/gentle/kind etc.
  
  The same argument could be said of people arguing in this discussion forum.
  
  I still think this discussion forum for the most part has been a very good way of spending my leisure. I have begun to notice many things in certain songs/music after being pointed out here.
  
  
• From: li li lo lo (@ nat135022.ericy.com) on: Fri Aug 27 15:21:35 EDT 1999
  
  pg:
  KVM had already won. Ithoda stop pannuga. Don't add for what movie he's won for. Yen sir reference allam tharingaa. Appuram naanga confuse aiyduvoom. Details'se tharama engaala bayamuruthanam.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Fri Aug 27 15:24:04 EDT 1999
  
  People who are irked by the reaction to 'dappAnguththu' should go to the Forumhub and following the discussions on 'icaith thamizh'. Carnatic music has its roots from tamil music (even though it has come a long way from what is documented in old tamil literature).
  
  The fact that 'dappAnguththu' does not get due recognition is because of the 'elitism' that has developed in our society. This is not very healthy. I dont see any Punjabis being defensive about 'Bhangra'. Thats the sign of a healthy society and they are a prosperous and well-off people.
  
  
• From: Mr.k (@ 206.139.13.152) on: Fri Aug 27 17:00:06 EDT 1999
  
  pg: KVM won in agasthiyar... where each words of a song is raga name and the line is sung in that raga
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Aug 27 17:20:41 EDT 1999
  
  Raja_veeti, liked ur posting. you hit the nail on its head!
  
  Kiru and kumar : you are absolutely right in ur views about dapaangoothu. Even among dapaangoothu, how many songs become hit or popular? One needs talent even to produce dapaangoothu. And IR needs to be given the credit for making some good daapangoothu songs which commeners from T-Nadu enjoy!
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Kooththan (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.redbrick.com) on: Fri Aug 27 21:15:27 EDT 1999
  
  Mr.K, KVM won for "Kanthan KaruNai".There been some other raagamalika's with this feature like
  oru NaaL pothuma (kvm), nee oru raagamaaligai(msv).agathiyar song - vendriduven naattayum naathaththaal ....(tms and sirkazhi)
  
  
• From: Ravi K. S. Ravichandran (@ pub-dial39.aclis.utah.edu) on: Fri Aug 27 22:07:39 EDT 1999
  
  I think Kiru has made a good point. We have developed a sense of "eliteness" in hearing one form of music (you know) and sort-of-a "look down" on "dapanguththu" or "nattupura" type songs. All the music are the same if we see it in terms of melody, rhythm and the emotions that are kindled by them. I think many imagine a "scene" or a "picture' of sophistication or eliteness when they hear a form of music and sort-of "pitchaikkarathanam" when they hear the other. I myself experience that feelings, subconsciously and try to overcome it. Any honest thoughts ?
  
  
• From: ppb (@ 1cust249.tnt1.rantoul.il.da.uu.net) on: Sat Aug 28 00:13:41 EDT 1999
  
  Manushanukku paithiyam pidikkanumnaa indha threadkuLLa vandhaa pOdhum - chattai pantai kizhichikkittu, mudiyap pichikkittu odiduvaan. enna vutrungO naa Odirren...............
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ snfcba02-38.splitrock.net) on: Sat Aug 28 01:19:49 EDT 1999
  
  Swami, sorry if I have offended you in any way. Probably, your wordings like "pitiable" etc had put me off.
  Ravi, Kiru most of our "jerigai veshtis" back home have this attitude and so do most of our Carnatic vidhwans. IR , sometime back had made a good point on the vidhwans singing Tyagaraja Kirthanas with an air of conceit and merely flaunting the fruits of their hard work at home as opposed to the creator himself spontaneously "ending up" composing songs out of passionate devotion. Most of them are grammar oriented (this too has its place) but undue emphasis on this removes the heart out of the Kritis. You do not often find a Maharajapuram, BMK, MLV or MSS.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: bb (@ pppa12-champaign4-1r267.saturn.bbn.com) on: Sun Aug 29 18:23:15 EDT 1999
  
  srikanth, it is hightime u list the 10 things that IR did to TFM...
  
  
• From: karthi (@ 1cust158.tnt1.rantoul.il.da.uu.net) on: Mon Aug 30 00:23:19 EDT 1999
  
  10 varumaa enna:))
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp02.sprint.com) on: Mon Aug 30 11:10:53 EDT 1999
  
  THIS IS JUST AN ATTEMPT AT EXPLANATION NOT AN EVALUATION OF SUPERIORITY/INFERIORITY:
  
  1. Carnatic (classical) music combines the music geared towards the heart and emotion (raagam and the saahithyam) with the one geared towards the brain/skills (chittasawaram or kalpana swaram). The individual mix of these broad features are dictated by the presenting artist. When Thyaagayyaa composed 'saamaja varagamanaa' in hindOLam I am guessing he was captured by the devotion towards 'muraLi' and NOT by the prospect of a savaal/javaanb with the violin accompaniment. And merely because there is a content geared towards the brain, it does not become superior or inferior. By contrast, dappanguththu and naattuppura paadalgaL are geared mostly (completely??) towards the heart and emotions. One is not expected to be 'trained' to perform or listen to this kind of music.
  
  2. Punjabis may be proud of bhangra, but honestly, they do not have a lot of variety to fall back on. Similarly, (especially if you live in the U.S.) the novelty of the Gujrati Garba, wears out after one has walked in the pattern of the number '8' for about 5 minutes. Or maybe I am cursed with trying to satisfy the brain aspect of the art at most occasions.
  
  3. Does one need to be trained or 'aware' to appreciate music? My answer is a resounding NO. Does one need to be trained or 'aware' to pass intelligent comments on the 'technical' aspects of music? My answer is a resounding YES. Quite often, when DFers are accused of violating the latter principle, they take refuge in the former, when that right was never questioned. If one thinks that Deva's Gana songs are the most pleasing to their mind/soul/body by all means they have the right to feel so. But when one says 'veLLarikkaa pinju veLLarikkaa' is similar to 'nanu paalimpa' merely because both are set in mohanam, I have just one proposition to them. I will give you a check for $103 in return for you giving me cash of $300,100. After all the digits are the same!!!
  
  
• From: Mr.k (@ 206.139.13.152) on: Mon Aug 30 11:31:31 EDT 1999
  
  RajaG ---Very Very good point!...
  
  but Here it is Sevidan kathu sanguthan.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Mon Aug 30 15:15:52 EDT 1999
  
  Mr K:
  
  We do listen to arguements. Please do not make general declarations here.
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Mon Aug 30 15:55:59 EDT 1999
  
  MS,
  
  people who have closed their minds do not have to close their eyes to act blind. mr. k is of such a character. please do not dignify its statements by replying to it.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Mon Aug 30 17:29:35 EDT 1999
  
  MS and AruL,
  
  At the risk of sounding like an interpreter for Mr. K (and this is not because he complimented my post), I think he has commented on the posts which ignore reason/logic etc., and has not specifically directed towards any DFer. His usage of sevidan kaadhu is more a comparison to the situation rather than a general accusation of all DFers as sevidans.
  
  Of course, this is still only my interpretation of his post!!
  
  
• From: Mr.K (@ 206.139.13.152) on: Mon Aug 30 17:36:57 EDT 1999
  
  MS and Arul, No harm intended.
  Basically if you see Mr.Dorai arguments in some other thread this will make you also post the same words I did.
  --- He says he is not biased but all the statement he makese are very biased.
  Eg: spb grew bcos of ir. --- konjum too much ila idhu. pavan spb, his hard word went to dust bin.
  
  RajaG -- your interpretation is somewhat correct.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Mon Aug 30 17:41:49 EDT 1999
  
  rajaG,
  Why this air of superiority?Every kind of music evokes some kind of emotion or the other.Its all done from the heart.It all depends on one's needs.
  A dappanguthu has its own thumping emotions.If you lay dumb to dappanguthu does'nt mean that it was not composed with emotions.
  Your attempt to equate $103 with $300,100 is in poor taste.This kind of admonishing is stunning from a person of your caliber.
  I personally feel that creations reflect one's state of mind.Thyagayaa's bhakthi(sometimes blind) did produce gems, which sung in the proper way can trancend spirituial emotions to the listener.At the same time a dappanguthu can evoke joyfull emotions in people and can take them to the same kind of mental esctacy as the former.
  To put it more bluntely,no one can cares how you reach an orgasm but the bottemline is wether you were able to get one.Its the path one takes.
  I do agree that carnatic music has structure which is lacking in the other forms but to deride other forms for a lack of structure is utter nonsense.
  This air of superirority has virtually killed carnatic music.Is it the same Aryan superemacy?Its about time we stop this.
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Mon Aug 30 17:58:21 EDT 1999
  
  MS, AruL, BB,
  
  Just shoot me. InimEla indha Forum la naa Edhaavadhu intelligent aa post paNNaa, yEm budhdhiya pinja cheruppaala adiyungO please.
  
  Anand,
  
  You continue. neenga thaan enna romba correct aa purinjindirukkeenga:-)
  
  
  
  

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