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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Thu Oct 19 16:28:47 EDT 2000
  
  trend,
  i am sorry, i dont think his talents are down.
  
  if you learn cycling for once, you will always remember to balance the cycle.
  Same goes with any art form, talent cannot come down or reduce. Sea is there always, but it is only the waves that come and go.
  
  Simply Ir is not interested, does not care. period. thats all.
  
  
  
  
• From: kk (@ 198.4.92.5) on: Thu Oct 19 16:32:48 EDT 2000
  
  fan,
  I can't beleive you cutout story between IR and Bagyaraj man. Come on! IR fighting for a cutout?. To date I havent seen kamal using IR's picture in his movie posters. Has it pissed off IR?. Dont listen to distributers.. all are junk heads... I know 2 or 3, They just makes stories.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Thu Oct 19 16:36:49 EDT 2000
  
  kk, many stories come and go,
  like you i dont belive many of them.
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 216.217.47.130) on: Thu Oct 19 16:39:55 EDT 2000
  
  Fan,
  Very nice narration of Customer Service Analogy. Liked it.
  
  But I don't agree with the "Sea and Wave Analogy". If the Sea is still there without any big waves then it is no more a Sea but a Lake/Pond. NOM
  
  
• From: sabesan (@ 64.160.54.146) on: Thu Oct 19 16:40:58 EDT 2000
  
  Trend, i did not mean to criticize "people's taste" when i said it has changed.... i may not like the change in "people's taste", but that is the reality.....
  
  don't tell me IR has not given challenge to ARR or to anyone.... he does, once in a while, not like the 80's or 90's when most of his songs were hit.... man, what do u expect out of a man who is in this field for 20 plus years... i keep hearing in Software industry that after 2 1/2 years of doing the same job, many are burnt out..... i feel, that's same for everyone.... u need some challenging situations - like Guru, Hey Ram to get this man to work and get us good music.... i certainly don't expect him to give good music for Karisakattu Poove (well, then he should'nt accept those movies, that's a different topic all together).....
  
  fan, i agree with u on this - yes IR is certainly not interested.... but my request is, please please do not work on those movies u r not interested.... pls do not give movies that we want to forget.....
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Thu Oct 19 16:45:01 EDT 2000
  
  Dorai,
  sea does not produce waves, it is the air that produce waves, air here can be compared to fans. for now "air" does not blow that side .... thats all.
  
  (Ofcourse we have many low pressure zones here :)
  
  btw:have you seen lake michegan :))
  
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 216.217.47.130) on: Thu Oct 19 16:49:03 EDT 2000
  
  Fan,
  Yes, I have seen Lake Michigan with waves. But have never seen any lake in India with big waves.
  I was refering to lakes in India.
  
  Anyway, I liked your postings.
  
  
• From: Gyaani (@ 63.253.226.46) on: Thu Oct 19 16:53:10 EDT 2000
  
  fan deivamE,
  unga manasa konjam alai mOtha vidaama parthukkOnga :))) Appa uvamayO uvamai.............
  As long as the sea remembers that it can produce waves or produced waves once upon a time, its OK.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Thu Oct 19 16:55:52 EDT 2000
  
  Dorai,
  i am bigger arr fan than anyone else here,
  my point is I dont want to gain arr-mileage by down grading IR, IR is great musician. I have learnt lot from him.
  So I am not able to agree that he is less talented now etc etc. He is always talented, he has his own problems in PR,
  even arr has problems at times like he eleminated VM just for some stupid reasons, ofcourse i still belive our man will realise and start using VM.
  
  Ir is not interested thats all, he can do wonders if he wishes.
  
  
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Thu Oct 19 16:56:33 EDT 2000
  
  Fan,
  
  When you have a talent it is not enough if you think you have mastered it and stop there.You should refine your talent with the changing times and be equal to the task at hand.If that is not hthe case then one is not considered to be an asset(anymore) to the field he is in.
  
  Endurance and perseverance are also necessary to aid talent.
  
  Sabesan,
  
  I'm not categorising IR in the class of burnouts(atleast not yet).He still has some more time to take stock of the situation and do whatever he wants.He shouldn't just wait for things to happen to him.
  
  If he sincerely believes we should get more quality music from him there are always respectable ways of getting opportunities for him to produce something commendable.
  
  Just imagine a scenario when one more Composer like ARR comes into the scene.Then IR would just be a genius of the past.It's high time he pulls up his socks.
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Thu Oct 19 17:00:41 EDT 2000
  
  Gyaani, will try thanks:))
  btw: sea does not produce waves...schoola antha class pothu cutA.. :))
  
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Thu Oct 19 17:04:34 EDT 2000
  
  trend , yes i agree,
  my calculation is right, his socks is been down for more than 8 years now. :)
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Thu Oct 19 17:12:40 EDT 2000
  
  Fan,
  
  Finally,
  any prediction if he will pull it up? :)
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Thu Oct 19 17:15:33 EDT 2000
  
  trend, i will be wanted dead or alive here if i answer this :)))
  
  safe answer is: He can but he will not...why should he...?
  
  
• From: hari (@ 129.116.226.162) on: Thu Oct 19 19:16:48 EDT 2000
  
  nice postings...
  
  My reading of the situation is this - Ir has gone on record that he is tired of composing for mundane stuff... if u read cram and csg's interview with raaja, he mentioned (pretty disgustedly wud be my guess) that "pudhusa yenna situation kuduththuda pOraanga... etc"
  
  Historically and globally speaking, I dont think anybody before Ir has tuned for similar situations so much...100s of songs. In fact, if u take the western composers, - the jazz/rock musicians - they compose free music rt, as in they freely experiment... there are no constraints of situation. I happened to listen to steely dan (btw, I am a total novice and a non-listener to WM) and its just ... i dont know how to explain it. its fancy chord progressions, beats going here and there ... but sounds good. Just like something like "how to name it" - just plain musical ideas - no constraints. I think every musician really loves to do this kind of music. What do the musicians in this forum feel abt this?
  
  But probably IR has reached a stage where he has to satisfy his fans (in paattalae budhhi sonnaar.. he says yen thalaivargaL, yen rasigargaL) , at the same time, he needs funding to make music the way he (and a lot of his fans) want him to. I dont think Ill be wrong in saying that a vast majority of his (urban?) fans want him to embark on private projects removed from all the mountainload of junk in Kodambakkam (People like KSR... yuck!!) Its all nice to say he shud reject junk movies etc.. but if u want him to embark on big projects.. (more symphonies, who knows?) he needs the money. And that comes from movies.
  
  my naalana worth opinion.
  hari
  
  
• From: Music fan (@ 208.154.130.13) on: Thu Oct 19 19:21:25 EDT 2000
  
  Fan, Dorai, Trend and others:
  
  We all know that Raaja has been in the field for around 25 years and has composed 4000 songs. Now, I do not want to argue with you all about the percentage of songs in those 4000 are good or bad. That is very subjective.
  
  If the stories written here were true, then the fact that the man called Ilayaraaja survived for so long in this industry is also not true.
  
  Now, I would like you all to see the other side of the coin. It is a cutthroat world and the tamil film industry is no exception. Any person wants to thrive on other person's defeat. There is money, politics, ego, bureaucracy everything involved everywhere. IR is a genius and the whole industry wanted to make use of his talents. That is it. IR had exhibited his eccentrities since day one in the industry. I have observed that by reading many of the articles/interviews since his entry into TFM. It is very easy to understand from his interviews that though he may sound eccentric to many, if you observe carefully, it can be observed that he has been a very straightforward man. Usually many people do not like a person who is frank and forthright. That is the order of the day. That does not make him a man who has an attitude.
  
  IR does not do music much as before because the trend/taste of the youth has changed after ARR's entry. America mEla eppadi mogam vandhu ellarum USla vandhu ukkandhu irukkeengalo, adhe madhiri "pop/rock style music" mEla namma youthukku mogam, avvalavudhaan. So, all turned their heads to the "whiz kid" ARR. That is it! I do not know why anyone has to raise the issue of IR's eccentricities as a reason of his downfall.
  
  In my opinion, IR does not compose music with a style. ARR has a style of his own. If you look at a movie for which IR has done music, it usually merges so much with the storyline that the BGM and songs do not stand out. That shows the man's talents. Even his very recent works in "Bharathi" and "Sethu" speak of that. So, I am very sorry guys, I cannot admit that our man has lost creativity or interest. Look at the music produced by other musicians. The song sequences way out of storyline. "mottai thalaikkum mulankaalum muduchi poduvadhu maadhiri dhaan irukku". For example, like the movie "Kaadhal desam", "Alaipaayudhe" and many other movies for which ARR/Deva/SAR have composed music stand testimony for that. That means that our folks at TFM lack creativity in movie production, screenplay, music production etc. But, Raaja is different. His music is even appreciated and acclaimed in TF industry and the press etc as being fresh, unique, evergreen. In fact, Bharathi's music was lauded by the Press. This is in the year 2000. Remember guys, Raaja started composing music in 1976.
  
  Many who write in this forum call IR a "musician". I sincerely believe that IR is a creator and does not have boundaries like a musician. The variety in tunes/orchestration/style is unique and his compositions are evergreen. Even though Raaja is out of TFM, he is not a man to stay out of music. I believe in his music and many composers from the world have admitted his genius.
  
  Mozart was a musician born in Germany and his genius was only known in his country and other few European countries. He was a child prodigy and wrote a symphony when he was 6 years old. His music was purposefully avoided by the public in his late 20s because people were bored with listening to so much of his music(Does that not sound in line with IR's music? - adhigam undaal amirthamum nanjaagum). Many of his symphonies were so complex that some of the notes could not even be played by any and not listenable. He was a spendthrift and was considered haughty. He became penniless and died in a pauper's grave when he was 34 years old. But until his death he composed music. He wrote a requeim on his death bed and died not completing it. So, does that make him any less of a genius?
  
  St.Thyagaraaja devoted his whole life in singing Lord Rama's praise that he did not know his genius. He composed innumerable raagas and many who had lived with him would not have recognized his greatness.
  
  Beethoven was a man of rage. But he composed great symphonies and musical treats even when he was deaf. Does that make him any less of a genuis?
  
  But, we all talk about St.Thyagaraja, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven even after 100 years have passed. Their music stand the test of time.
  
  Maestro Ilayaraaja belongs the same category. If you do not want to admit it, it is not going to change the fact that he is going to leave indelible marks in the history of India as the "Greatest music composer India produced in the 20th century".
  
  I believe that Maestro Ilayaraaja is a grand happening and we all Indians should be proud to be witnessing that. As expressed in the movie "Amadeus", the genius' mind is ever merged in music and there is no waxing or waning in their creativities. In fact, it is the people who neglect a creator's works for a while because they are overwhelmed by their creations. But just because people who were living in a timeline rejected that music, that does not mean that the works will not stay for years to come.
  
  Truly
  Music fan
  
  
  
  
• From: Paithiyam (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu Oct 19 20:07:21 EDT 2000
  
  Oh hahahaha......Iam still mad listening to IRs songs. More than that all this antics...Stop me guys!!
  
  

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