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SPB and TMS - Compare and Contrast

Topic started by rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on Tue Mar 16 12:39:41 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I had mentioned very briefly mentioned about TMS's talents (and some deficiencies thereof strictly IMO) in another thread. Obviously, the two kings of TFMs deserve at least a separate thread for discussion, instead of merely being a 'distraction' in some other thread.

My request to the participants is:
Please try to be objective in assessing their qualities. Let us explore difference in background, cultural situation at the time of their prime, acting style of the principal heroes, training etc. Let us not take the easy path of 'mere mudslinging' on the artists or the DF participants. Believe me, if and when I have done it, I have not been proud of it!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Fri Mar 19 17:57:56 EST 1999
  
  adding to comments on SPB's singing in 70's,
  he was prolific in his kuzhaiyal in maadhamO aavaNi, in expressing "padaiththaanE brahma devan", and was good in the lower octaves in "pottu vaiththa mugamO".
  BTW, rajaG, en kaadhal kaNmaNi is in manjal kunkumam. and IMO, a great pathos song by SPB was in unakkenna mElE nindraai (sindhubhairavi?).
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.151) on: Sat Mar 20 00:22:15 EST 1999
  
  bb,
  Unakkenna mele nindrai is from Simla Special. Sindhu Bhairavi is 100% KJY.
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Sat Mar 20 00:52:10 EST 1999
  
  eden: *****ROFL******** aanaalum, ennai neenga ivvalavu mattamaa nenaichchirukka koodaadhu!!!!! of course unakkenna mElE nindraai is from simla special! i put "sindhubhairavi?" as i was wondering out aloud whether it was in raagam sindhubhairavi! i think it is the best usage of sindhubhairavi in TFM... i am not sure. raga literate people can tell. ***ROFL again****
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-tq083.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Mar 20 01:04:10 EST 1999
  
  Chandy, enna 'long time no see'?
  BB, unga reply enakka rajaG -kka? Are you asking about the raga of unakkenna mElE nindrAi?
  
  Since there is a some hue and cry going on about SPB's over-doing of expression especially in pathos, let me chime in my views on this aspect. As i mentioned earlier , his overstated expressions were very less in number compared to the number of pathos in which he did really express to the right magnitude. 'nAn pAdum mouna Aam', 'vAnuyarntha sOlayilE', 'uthaya geetham pAduvEn','ithayam oru kOvil' are examples which are better expressed on lower notes. His blissful melodies on the lower notes like 'iLaya nila', 'thEnE then pAndi meenE', 'pani vizhum malar vaNam' are expressed just to the expectations. The apparant overdoing in 'maniyOsai kEttu ezhunthu' was probably having a ground based on the story,movie situation. I certainly don't have a problem with his expressions in 'unnai pArtha pinbu nAn' and 'mOnAlisa' . IMO, any AlAbanai must have been administered by the MD and not by the singer on his own, but i will take a fresh listen to the song later and find out whether it is really bothersome or not. As for as stage-shows are concerned, that is his part-time leisure and has very little impact on TFM singing, IMO.
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Sat Mar 20 01:06:51 EST 1999
  
  rameshb, it was not a reply, it was just an observation:-) and yes, i wanted to make sure that unakkenna mElE nindraai was in sindhubhairavi.
  
  
• From: hari (@ 172-182-69.ipt.aol.com) on: Sat Mar 20 13:37:17 EST 1999
  
  rameshb,
  
  I will like to find out how you feel about the
  songs I mentioned, as you have keen sense of observation. I agree with you that SPB renderation in songs idaya koil, mouna ragam, udaya geetham are perfect. I was listening to tu he mera dil( Duet in hindi), i mean SPB simply goes overboard ( even if you brave enough to ignore his hindi accent). I remember one SPB 70s song - ennodu kanna en pecavillai - vkumar song. This song is also emotional and SPB could have spoiled it like lot of his later day songs, but he did prefect job. Later days, may be for some reason, he went overboard at the cost of raising our eye brows more than often.
  
  with smile :-)
  e. hari
  
  
• From: hari (@ 172-182-69.ipt.aol.com) on: Sat Mar 20 13:47:49 EST 1999
  
  also, I want to find out whether anytime in his career SPB told anything about TMS, +ve or -ve comments. I cant recall any instances, where he did actually. I can see that his school of singing is different from TMS, but as a senior and great singer at the time of his arrival, and considering all the good nature of SPB, I wish to find out what he thinks of TMS in general.
  
  comments welcome
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: aanandam (@ tsk-37-112.tm.net.my) on: Sun Mar 21 22:49:05 EST 1999
  
  Friends : I would like to know the MOVIE NAMES and the SINGERS for the following songs :
  
  1. Kan Moodum Velaiyile
  2. Kangalin vaarthaigal Puriyatho
  
  I would also like to know the SINGERS for the foll songs :
  
  1. Kumkuma Pottin ( Kudiyiruntha Koil )TMS ?
  2. Aadaluddan Paadalikettu ( Kudiyiruntha Koil )TMS ?
  
  Thanks in Advance.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.157) on: Sun Mar 21 23:11:51 EST 1999
  
  Both the Kudiyirindha koil songs were by TMS/PS
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on: Mon Mar 22 01:08:22 EST 1999
  
  and both the previous songs are by A M Raja and PS from Mahadevi and kaLathur kannamma respectively.
  
  
• From: aanandam (@ tsk-35-89.tm.net.my) on: Mon Mar 22 05:35:35 EST 1999
  
  Eden & Karthi : Thank you both !
  
  Just one more query :
  
  Which movie is the song : Nilavo Aval Irulo
  
  ( Sung by TMS & PS )
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Mon Mar 22 11:27:58 EST 1999
  
  
  Yup. I agree with Hari that SPB sounds awful in some of his hindi numbers. The language-problem is quite apparent in some of his hindi numbers. This is unlike KJY whose hindi-diction problem is not as visible as in case of SPB.. may be, its due to the lesser number of songs of KJY is hindi films.
  
  Rameshb, i am very much around, though in different threads :)
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com) on: Mon Mar 22 12:06:08 EST 1999
  
  rameshb,
  
  I am in a curious predicament. Let me give an example. If you presented an analysis to a HCIRF like say Raj or Srinath in which you had concluded that IR was the greatest MD ever EXCEPT for his mediocre use of violins would they applaud you for your final conclusion or criticize you for your exception? Mine is a similar situation.
  Your analysis of SPB is very good.
  However, I did not notice any mookkala paadaradhu in Iyarkkai ennum (by SPB even though PS did her fair share). And there is no difference in his approach to singing (I'm not talking about difference in line by line expression) between iyarkkai eennum and aayiram nilavE vaa.
  Secondly, in thoduvadhenna thendralO, both thErilEri and kaamadhEnu are the lines with the highest placed swaras in the song so I am not sure by what you mean by 'lowest frequency' and voice modulation therof.
  
  I will continue in my next post.
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Mon Mar 22 12:13:11 EST 1999
  
  One of the most general problem with southie singers in their hindi rendering is in enunciation of some syllabic consonants like 'ka','kha','ga','gha'. This is very much an element of hindi diction and it forms one of the building blocks for construction of words. There is another factor which gives rise to a clear distinction of south-indian pronounciation is the way one employs rustic stress to the words. In spite of his ability to pronounce or sing softer notes, SPB still employs a kinda muddled accent for even some of the lower notes. For example in the song, 'tere mere beech mein kaisa hai yeh bandhan', he gives a throaty stress at many places , especially in the first charanam , IMO. Had it been more nasal driven , could have been better. Whereas KJY is very efficient in giving right kinda stress at appropriate places. He has done an excellent in the song 'gori tera ghanv bada pyara mein to gaya mara ake yahan re' in chitchor. BTW, has TMS sung any hindi number?
  
  
• From: rajan (@ cinerea.qualcomm.com) on: Mon Mar 22 12:18:47 EST 1999
  
  In one of interviews with The Hindu, TMS had mentioned that in the movie "Adimai penn" MGR wanted to try a different voice so he recorded 2 songs "Aayiram nilve vaa" and "Thayillamal naanillai" with SPB and that MGR found the voice unsuitable so he replaced SPB with TMS for "Thayillamal naanillai". The tone in that interview was very conceited.
  
  In an interview with SUN TV, SPB had mentioned that SPB fell sick for the actual recording and that MGR decided to keep SPB for "Aayiram nilve vaa" and waited for SPB to recover before recording the final version of the song.
  
  Now I am wondering whether "Thayillamal naanillai" was recorded by TMS because SPB was sick rather than what TMS claims to be.
  
  In later years although MGR gave SPB a few songs, he settled with KJY for romantic numbers because his voice was gentle and feminine and suited more with MGRs romantic moods. TMS was reserved for "Thatuva" padalgal.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Mon Mar 22 12:31:23 EST 1999
  
  bb,
  
  The raaga for unakkenna is sindubhairavi.
  
  Chandy,
  
  I am not a fan of SPB's Hindi songs either. It is not his pronunciation which is at fault. and for most parts his accent is OK too. It is the expression. His strong point in TFM actually becomes his -ve in HFM. This is because the emphasis played in emotion is different in the north of the Deccan versus the south. Placement of brigas, his special sirippu, etc should be done within the parameters of northern Indian culture and tradition. Just imagine if instead of the plain Kamban Emaandhaan if a singer placed a briga at EEEEEmaandhaan, while it is technically feasible it would sound horrible considering the lyrics, tune, situation etc. IMHO this knowledge comes from sustained exposure to the language and culture and is not an easily transferable skill. But KJY is no success story either. He sounds extremely mallu and was OK for a brief period as a novelty but quickly the excitement ran out.
  Another interesting point. If you listen to Nusrath Fateh Ali (especially his Ghazals) he has very 'defective' urdu pronunciation. For example, he says 'dhekaa' (saw) instead of dhekHaa, and kabhi instead of kabHi. I'm told this is because of his Sindhi and Sufi background. Yet, how many amongst us would readily recognize that his rendering is 'foriegn'? This is because his expression (with reference to the culture) is more apropriate and covers up his minor pronunciation deficiencies. In SPB's case it is the reverse.
  
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Mon Mar 22 12:35:52 EST 1999
  
  rajaG,
  i think the delivery of the very first couple of words 'iyaRkai ennum' is highly nasal oriented. Then in the charaNam (first or second?) , 'thalaiyai viriththu' his nasal stress is once again highly pronounced. But, this stress is not given uniformly all through the song. I will take a listen to the song once again. As for as the lower freq of 'kAmathEnu' and 'thEril yEri', you are right, he reaches a higher note in the song as a whole in these lines. My point was that he can modulate his voice from within a given octave (generally lower) to express more effectively a given song.
  
  

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