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Why does Carnatic songs of IR sound so different from ARR ?

Topic started by cosmician (@ 194.170.1.67) on Mon Apr 23 01:24:33 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I'm not music literate and go more by feel and hearing...and this has always baffled me. Why does carnatic songs tuned by IR sound so different from those of ARR ? Could you please throw some light on this ?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: nvd (@ 161.142.100.85) on: Tue Apr 24 01:34:53 EDT 2001
  
  Raghasiyamai from Dumm^3 is a superb fusion of carnatic with modern instruments. KR did something really different!!!
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.1.130) on: Tue Apr 24 02:33:39 EDT 2001
  
  Is "Raghasiyamai" based on the same raaga or inspired by "Puthum Pudhu poo..." from Thalapathi..the song that was not picturised...sung I think by Yesudoss and Janaki ?
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.20) on: Tue Apr 24 03:24:05 EDT 2001
  
  Cosmician:
  Ragasiyamai is more of Malayamarutham while Putham Puthu poo is Panthuvarali.
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.1.130) on: Tue Apr 24 04:29:49 EDT 2001
  
  Do these two raagas sound similar ?
  
  
• From: spectator (@ 128.226.108.240) on: Tue Apr 24 06:57:24 EDT 2001
  
  well said Karthik!
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Tue Apr 24 09:29:54 EDT 2001
  
  Karthick
  Can you explain little more of your "generation gap" theory...very interesting point, the gap is just 10 years....imho, 10 years is too short period for Carnatic music to make a generation change.I go with theory that their composing methods is the root cause for the difference.
  
  Swamiji you are talking about graha bedam thoeries of carnatic music in WC way.
  As far as senior musicians goes this is very std for them. Modes are very very elementry when compared with ragas. Ragas have a great amount of emotion in them, while modes simply dont.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Apr 24 11:59:53 EDT 2001
  
  Comment,
  True. The melakarta scheme can but thought of as a "modal" analysis. I guess Jazz musicians study this as part of improvising on different modes of a scale.
  
  
• From: veriyan (@ 202.188.228.192) on: Tue Apr 24 13:51:39 EDT 2001
  
  bcoz
  
  IR carnatic music = carnatic + manvaasanai
  
  and
  
  ARR carnatic music= carnatic + hindustani Gazhal
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.20) on: Tue Apr 24 23:38:32 EDT 2001
  
  Comment:
  
  I really meant the generation gap in the listeners and not between ARR and IR. There are a set of listeners who have listened to IR in the background (maybe due to their parents, or simply 'cos IR was all-pervasive at one point in tamil films) or listened to IR with a vengeance. They continue to adore IR no matter what his present music standard is.
  
  And there are a more recent set of listeners who grew up on ARR since '92. This also includes people who were bored with the music of late '80s when IR's movies were a bit less and Deva was getting tons of work. They saw ARR as the lone saviour!
  
  The first set will always stand by IR. The second will continue to adore ARR while also enjoying select stuff from IR.
  
  IR and ARR (have to be) are above such gaps, they need to be receptive and open to all kinds of music.
  
  
• From: Trying to close italics (@ 164.164.82.20) on: Tue Apr 24 23:39:29 EDT 2001
  
  
  
  Sorry closing italics!
  
  
• From: Trying again (@ 164.164.82.20) on: Tue Apr 24 23:40:26 EDT 2001
  
  
  
  
• From: Desperate! (@ 164.164.82.20) on: Tue Apr 24 23:41:18 EDT 2001
  
  This is
  
  
  
  Hopeless
  
  
• From: badri (@ 202.9.181.130) on: Wed Apr 25 00:30:57 EDT 2001
  
  well,Swamiji's reply on this tread is the perfect reply,
  for example listen to
  1.kai veenahyai yenthum kalaivaanhiye -bombay jaysree-vietnaam colony
  2.paavan guru pavana -chitra-melle thiranthathu kadhavu.
  3.saranam bhava karuna-sujatha-sethu
  ........you compare this with any M.D's carnatic
  compositions -listeners (even carnatic literate's will only enjoy IR the most.melody content is more
  in IR.s songs.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.5.192) on: Wed Apr 25 01:27:24 EDT 2001
  
  comment, I think your theory may not be 100% applicable for semi-classical songs in films(which is probably what cosmician intended when he says `carnatic' songs). Do you think the Sindhubhairavi songs or songs like `vEdham nee' `Om namashivAyA' `rAghavanE ramaNA' `sreedhEvi en vAzhvil' etc. got composed based on chord arrangement? Similary, ARR's regular composing style wouldn't have been applied for songs like `mArgazhi thingaL allavA', IMHO.
  
  
• From: Venkatesh (@ 212.72.1.156) on: Wed Apr 25 04:04:18 EDT 2001
  
  Badri,
  
  Kai veenayai is not by Bombay Jayashree, its by the old actress Jayashree (KB films fame).
  
  
• From: IsaiPriyan (@ 164.164.86.66) on: Wed Apr 25 04:11:32 EDT 2001
  
  Karthik.. Putham Pudhu Poo from Dhalapathy is "Hamsanandhi" Ragam. One more song in the same raga is "Ninnai Charan Adainthen" from "Bharathi".
  
  If I am not wrong, the starting pieces ("Aahhaaahaa...") in both songs have some similarities.
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.20) on: Wed Apr 25 06:24:45 EDT 2001
  
  IsaiPriyan:
  
  Sorry for the blunder. putham puthu is in fact Hamsanandhi. I remember another famous IR song in this raagam...Rajapaarvai's 'anthi mazhai pozhikirathu'! Is Thanga Magan's 'raathiriyil poothirukkum' based in this raagam too? Seems like it.
  
  
• From: Vijay Venkatram J (@ 202.54.33.172) on: Wed Apr 25 07:32:33 EDT 2001
  
  Venkatesh:
  ----------
  Kai Veenayai is by Bombay Jayashree - I have the original Echo Cassette of Vietnam Colony. The actress was KB fame only but her name is Jayanthi,not Jayashree and she acted but not sing the song. Jayanthi recently acted in 'Housefull' too.
  
  Maestro's Fans Come To:
  -----------------------http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/maestroilaiyaraajafansclub
  
  
• From: hari (@ 129.116.226.162) on: Wed Apr 25 08:20:17 EDT 2001
  
  Karthik S, IP...
  
  I believe, raaththiriyil is Hamsanandhi, ninnai is panthuvaraaLi (someone said its a raagam called purvi kalyANi... i dont know if its the same as panthuvarALi).. andhi mazhai is generally accepted as vasantha.
  
  
• From: Philosopher (@ 12.29.192.65) on: Wed Apr 25 09:50:30 EDT 2001
  
  Raagam: Hamsanandi
  some IR songs: Raagadeepam (payanangal mudivadillai), Vedam (salangai oli), Raathiriyil (thanga magan)
  
  Raagam: Pantuvarali
  some IR songs: Putham Pudhu (dalapathi), Ninnai (Bharathy), andhi Mazhai (raaja Paarvai)
  
  
• From: Venkatesh (@ 212.72.1.156) on: Wed Apr 25 09:54:19 EDT 2001
  
  Vijay V, It was a typo, I meant Jayanthi only (who had acted in the picture also). But are u sure she didnt sing that song?
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Apr 25 10:35:53 EDT 2001
  
  I was the one who brought up chords in this context. But I should clarify that not all carnatic songs of IR have chords. And others may not have chord backing for the full song.
  
  
• From: Vijay Venkatram J (@ 203.197.154.216) on: Wed Apr 25 15:17:20 EDT 2001
  
  Venkatesh:
  -----------
  I wonder if Jayanthi is a singer?! I am sure that the song is by Bombay Jayashree. It might have been her first song - another introduction of IR?
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Wed Apr 25 16:20:04 EDT 2001
  
  Chords, melody or using a raaga are part of a bigger scheme called arrangement. Chord by itself doesn't "talk" much more than a melody does. Chord is a means to "talk together" with a melody - you may call it support. People mistake "good chords" to be a prerequisite for a composer - not true. That is the work of an arranger. IR happened to be a good arranger himself (and he knew what goes best with melody he wrote). But I don't think IR wrote an arrangement first before a melody. If you really think about it, an arrangement is like writing "good melodic lines" in support of the main leading melody. I 've already talked about this before - In part writing, writing for different parts like a soprano, or alto must follow good melodic sequence as well as keep with the harmony of that measure. (A precursor
  to this rule of writing harmonies is that of "counterpoints" - where there were different rules on how to progress on notes and in which direction they must go). I think this is beyond what I am trying to say - but my point is - Every NOTE is important. Forget chords - or melody - EVERYTHING is important.
  There are a few MDs (like sankar ganesh) - remember the wonderful tune "Oru kaadal Devadai"...that made use of a very good arranger. If you listen to the melody, you would find that it is so simple. But the arrangement is so neat, that it made the song a pleasure to listen to. So a melody is as important as an arrangement and vice versa.
  
  Also, please read this article on Sir Yehudi Menuhin's analysis on Indian Music
  http://www.rit.edu/~pnveme/raga/Menuin1.html
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Wed Apr 25 17:31:52 EDT 2001
  
  Swamiji,
  Thanks for the post . I think it answers my question.
  I have read that Yehudi Menuhin article before and so Re: Harmony - I have read that in tholkAppiyam there are descriptions on how a yAzh and flute can play concurrently. The notes (surams) themselves are classified into inai, kiLai/pagai, natpu. So I think we had the concept of harmony but we were concentrated on what notes can follow what rather than what notes can play concurrently. Even today in terms of melody I dont think WCM people can come up the kind of really good stuff our carnatic people can. So our rAgam tradition is one of the achievements of our understanding of the character of each note. It is just that WCM people have applied it differently. Also, many cultures seem to have the concept of an octave and we even have proof that the 12-note (Semi-tone ?) was developed in SouthIndia almost at the same time as in the West. This was based on a fretted veenai discovered near thanjAvUr dating to 2 or 3 centuries back.
  
  
• From: NagaS (@ 202.169.188.190) on: Thu Apr 26 03:20:04 EDT 2001
  
  Vijay,
  
  You are right, IR introduced Bombay Jayashri to TFM in Vietnaam colony.,
  
  (I was thinking she is yet another ARR find in 'Narumugaiye' till I listened to this song in DoorDarshan ;-)
  
  NagaS
  
  
• From: Vijay Venkatram J (@ 202.54.33.165) on: Thu Apr 26 07:52:17 EDT 2001
  
  Nalla Velai,
  People now understand that Bombay Jayashree is IR's Introduction!
  
  

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