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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sun Apr 9 20:29:32 EDT 2000
  
  which MSV could never even think of, the interludes...Mr.Athi, you have not heard music before 1975, total absured statement.
  
  
  
  
• From: Athi (@ netcache32.mot.com) on: Sun Apr 9 22:09:27 EDT 2000
  
  Mr.Srikanth,
  
  I can understand how it feels being a MSV fan. What I had meant is compared to IR, MSV was no where in the variety of interludes. Infact IR was the one who introduced the concept of different interlude music in the same song. In almost all the MSV songs, the same interlude will come 3 times(and this is tfm before 1975) and IR is credited with changing this and introducing the biggest innovation of different interlude music in the same song. MSV himself has appreciated this many times whenever he had opportunity to talk about this.
  
  Anyway I would like to know in how many songs has MSV used different interlude music(like IR)? I think it must be very less. I want to correct myself if I was misunderstood, I had meant different interlude music in the same song and not the way it has been understood. I never meant that MSV couldn't think of interludes and what I was refering to is the usage of different interludes in the same song.
  
  Athi
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Mon Apr 10 00:22:54 EDT 2000
  
  MS,
  I do have my biases :) So that aside, I do not expect change..I could listen to some music again and again :) So exclude me from that group.
  Let me elaborate why ARR does not invoke respect from me or put it politely he has a credibility issue. For eg. 'thangath thAmari magaLe' has the same drum arrangement (not tune) like Nssi Nssi song from the same album by Khaled. So he does look outside for inspiration. IR learns WCM and tries to do stuff by himself.
  But dont think I underestimate ARR. He has done a lot but his focus, approach to music (as understood by me) is different.
  I will write more later.
  (BTW, I love Italian food, as well as pIrkangAi thuvaiyal with sambar :))
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Mon Apr 10 00:35:16 EDT 2000
  
  Athi,
  basically you need to hear more, please hear the movie tracks instead of old sp records, most of the songs have 2 or more interludes.
  also these songs have 3 saranams, so one interlude was repeated, this was due to various factors, how much time will take for a composer like MSV to compose one more interlude, not much.
  I think after 60 this trend was changed, ofcourse raja has done great bgm work. That fact cannot or should not pull down a great musician.
  Also tune wise i think no one has come near msv till date, he is way ahead than anyone.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Mon Apr 10 12:56:41 EDT 2000
  
  There are four aspects to music -
  melody, harmony, rhythm and texture(instrument
  sounds and mixing).
  Every hit song must have innovations in
  each of the areas. However, each MD
  creates his unique style by working
  on one or two of the aspects where he
  has mastered and studied more.
  
  MSV emphasized Melody. Raja emphasized
  Harmony. Rahman emphasizes Rhythm and Texture.
  Each MD chooses an area not
  already taken over by the previous king.
  
  This oversimplifying statement does not
  mean, MSV did not do the other 3 aspects,
  Raja was a poor melody maker etc. No,
  any MD worth his name has to be a master
  in each of these. It is the relative emphasis
  and the area in which MD chooses to spend
  most of his time on.
  
  RJAY
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Mon Apr 10 13:41:14 EDT 2000
  
  To clarify what I mean by emphasis,
  we can ask this question: which one of these
  four, if taken away from the song, the
  song would fall flat.
  
  Texture is the emphasis of Chinna chinna aasai -
  and almost early Rahman work and most of his
  work in general. (A clear exception would be
  Poralae ponnuthayee - which is a melody,
  as is Ennavalae).
  He has used vocal harmony and synth pad
  harmonies as textural elements in all songs,
  but harmony dynamics is what we are talking
  about.
  Only recently
  I have heard effective use of harmony
  (not as a textural element) from him.
  
  The ones I am thinking of are One from Taal se taal mila song interlude and another
  from Pachai niramae (interlude), where the group
  sings "roorooru rooo". (which reminds me the
  string section from Thendral vandhu theendum
  bodhu - harmony change).
  
  On the other hand
  Raja uses harmony changes as the core of his
  musical tension and release. Ranging from
  Rakkamma to ennullae to any genre of song,
  he derives his melody, his rythm and
  his texture from his harmony!
  
  
  Rahman's rythmic innovations are his best,
  Just to quote an example, Chikku bukku rayilae (listen to the
  drums, dolak, pakhawaj, thai avardhanam
  in the second interlude), Unusual polyrythms
  are his forte in every song he has done.
  Every song, I mean it. Use of Tavil in Kadalikkum
  pennin kaigal. to give a few early examples.
  
  Ilayaraja has done similar rhtyhm focus in
  En jodi manja kuruvi and Rakkamma. If I had
  to mention one example from MSV,
  Kattrukkenna
  veli kadalukkenna moodi (the unusual constricting rythm of melam (which accompanies the chorus
  girl's measured humming versus the freeflowing mridhangam, which accompanies
  the noholdsbarred improvisation of Janaki)
  orchestration in the intro is breath taking. It
  creates the theme of the song immediately. If you
  have not heard that, please do! It is available in one of the webpages.
  
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Mon Apr 10 16:27:37 EDT 2000
  
  rjay,
  
  what is your definition of texture? can you be more explicit? texture is a derivative of harmony (if i may say so :-) ). so it is how you arrange your (harmonic) parts that define the texture. in this context, i would like you explain how you consider rahman's strong point is his texture.
  
  (and obviously, i am not going to agree with your characterization of each of these m.d.'s music :-) ).
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Mon Apr 10 16:46:38 EDT 2000
  
  Let me clarify my terminology.
  
  Melody is the note sequence and also the
  scale framework. Harmony is the
  simultaneous set of notes played in context, rythm is the basic pulse and or the repeating percussion aspect.
  
  Texture is the total sound ambience. It
  derives from the following aspects:
  
  - timbre: instrument sound that plays the melody/harmony/rythm.
  
  - orchestration: determined by which instruments
  play together at any given time.
  
  MSV and Raaja have done a lot in these too.
  
  With the advent of stereo, pan or stereo placement
  is another aspect of texture.
  
  With advent of digital recording techniques and
  electronic sythesis and sampling, there is
  a new dimension in texture:
  instrument articulation, dynamics, and effects
  like reverb, echo, etc etc.
  
  Even though one may quickly dispose off texture
  as 'nothing but' recording engineering. It is
  not so. There is art and design to it and it
  can distinctly improve a given melody or harmony.
  Infact Rahman uses this texture aspect (new
  instruments, effects, mixing, placement etc)
  as an integral way of creating new ideas.
  
  Let us take a simple example. Take the Usilampatti Penkutti - song's intro.
  There is a flute solo.
  Listen to it in your mind or in a CD,
  before you read further.
  
  Well, I said flute, no it is a pan flute,
  or some special tribal flute. (instrumentation).
  You could have written out the note sequence
  simply. If somebody plays it, it would not
  sound like this. There is lot of volume dynamics
  and timbral dynamics in such a short piece.
  By design, Rahman makes the flute play solo,
  in absolute silence, so that listener can see
  the rich and varying texture in this 3 second
  solo! There is good reverb and echo added,
  giving the flute solo a strong forest/jungle
  dimesion. Almost haunting!
  
  Texture is what transformed a simple three note
  theme into such a piece.
  
  You are right. You do not need new instrument
  sounds or recording effects to create new
  textures, you can do that by harmony and
  I mentioned this type of texture in the earlier
  posting.
  
  However, there is a huge world of new emotion
  possible when the texture is crafted well by
  a trained ear.
  
  Let me know if any part of this explanation sounds
  crap.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Mon Apr 10 16:51:20 EDT 2000
  
  arularacan said:
  Texture is a derivative of harmony..
  
  Actually I would put it the other way,
  harmony is one way of creating textures.
  
  In fact you can create pseudo harmony by
  playing the same melody in two octaves.
  Ear is fooled into hearing a harmony!
  In fact most of the times, you can create
  very effective by playing the same
  melody again in the third and/or fifth
  notes. Good counterpoint writers go beyond
  this 'dummies harmony' by writing a nontrivial
  melody line that still synchronises harmonically.
  
  Even they stay close to the root notes of the
  chord. Otherwise, it wont be in harmony!
  
  
  

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