Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Sat Apr 8 23:41:51 EDT 2000
  
  MS,
  Your outburst may be reasonable. But ARR does not invoke respect from his listeners(sorry if it sounds rude). There have been many 'inspirations'. Even if I like some of his new songs I am reluctant to praise him for that because I might discover the source 'inspiration' later.
  I do appreciate him that our song making style should be 'state of the art' (like in western countries). He is a talented and creative guy. But I always doubt his originality.
  Ofcourse, I am a fan of IR's music so discount my statements for any bias. I strongly beleive in original work. That is not the case with POP music even here in the US. All they need is a catchy melody, that sounds new. Contrast this with a honest music maker like IR. He does what he thinks is music. He does not want a song to sound like some particular style. So that encouraged a corpus of diverse song styles. Fresh ideas in every other movie. No wonder he managed to do music for 25 years. ARR sounds repetitive not necessarily in style, but exact bits of music, as though they have been cut-and-pasted.
  (I just wanted to give my 2 cents on ARR vs IR)
  
  
• From: KITKAT (@ 203.106.111.90) on: Sun Apr 9 00:30:39 EDT 2000
  
  kiru
  Your words were ... to be precise... not worth anything more than 2 cents.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sun Apr 9 03:23:20 EDT 2000
  
  neels,
  Puttham pudhu bhoomi was composed for a jingle for a bombay based company, 3-4 before the song was released, I have heard the english and hindi version, i somewhat remember it was sung by noel-james, arr asst.
  Maniratham liked this song very much so he used it in the movie.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sun Apr 9 03:23:31 EDT 2000
  
  neels,
  Puttham pudhu bhoomi was composed for a jingle for a bombay based company, 3-4 years before the song was released, I have heard the english and hindi version, i somewhat remember it was sung by noel-james, arr asst.
  Maniratham liked this song very much so he used it in the movie.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.138) on: Sun Apr 9 03:49:51 EDT 2000
  
  MS!
  I saw shades of inspiration from Michael Jackson's `smooth criminal' (album:Bad) in the Thiruda...song : chandralekha
  
  Srinath & Srikanth: can you kindly do the comparison discussion for `ennavaLE' & `pon mAlaippozhudhu' I was told both are based on `kEdharam' and male solo's; both were immensely popular with same lyricist...level playing ground:-)
  
  (AttamA as sample from IR's collections is very, very unfair...muqala could've been compared with, say, ilamai idho idho)
  
  
• From: hari (@ bay-72.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sun Apr 9 06:21:38 EDT 2000
  
  Hi all
  
  This is a kisukisu I heard from a very reliable source. Apparently during a Rediff online chat session, with Kamal, someone calling himself ARR apparently asked him whether Hey Ram's BGM was IR's or michchameedhi of LS'. To this apparently Kamal got really pained and wrote back saying "What status have u got to comment abt IR, I can list a 100 songs u have copied.." and went on to list a few...!!!
  
  Does anyone know anything abt this ?
  
  hari
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Sun Apr 9 10:48:55 EDT 2000
  
  kiru and eden:
  
  I thought copying was a sin ! inspiration too ?
  
  
• From: vaathyaar (@ on-tor-blr-ahp-20-66.look.ca) on: Sun Apr 9 11:11:12 EDT 2000
  
  MS
  
  Get with the lingo man. Let me clarify it for you:
  
  Deva lifts a tune: COPY
  
  ARR lifts a tune: INSPIRATION
  
  Deva lifts a tune from a spiritual song
  (eg: kandashashdi kavasam for 'suuriyan'): BLASPHEMY
  
  ARR lifts a tune from a spiritual song
  (eg: thakka thayya from a Sufiyana song (Source: Rediff Interview)):
  DEVINE INSPIRATION
  
  Got it? Now proceed.
  
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Sun Apr 9 12:44:51 EDT 2000
  
  vaathyaar :-) good pun though I disagree :-)
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Sun Apr 9 17:55:22 EDT 2000
  
  Kiru:
  
  But ARR does not invoke respect from his listeners(sorry if it sounds rude)
  
  I am still not deaf :-) It is good that you yourself admitted it is rude :-)
  
  Even if I like some of his new songs I am reluctant to praise him for that because I might discover the source 'inspiration' later
  
  the word inspiration has been used in a diferent connotation (especially negative) against ARR in the DF. Anyway,I will not dive into the depths of jargon. A song of "sahiyE" or "thoda thoda" malarnthathenna 's calibre will rarely be looked at with suspicion. The melody is clearly Indian and the orchestration is innovative.
  
  He is a talented and creative guy. But I always doubt his originality.
  
  I fail to understand. You may be doubting his originality because he is not one of your favourites ? That is possible. A similar example would be the case of food - your preference to Indian food may make you think that Italian is unimpressive. The truth is that Italian does impress a set of people. Just because its elements are not Indian you cannot doubt its uniqueness. And when there are people who like both Italian and Indian (like me:-) with a better preference for Indian, there are some who are just apathetic.
  
  IR. He does what he thinks is music
  
  May be you are trying to tell me that he does what 'you' think is music and that is why you are impressed. As everybody will agree, taste is highly a personal concept. If IR thinks what he does is music, ARR does the same too ! SO I donot really get your point!
  
  He does not want a song to sound like some particular style. So that encouraged a corpus of diverse song styles. Fresh ideas in every other movie
  
  Not really :-) Though he has his inimitable style and orchestration, he does not have fresh ideas in "every other movie". I can give you umpteen number of examples in IR's songs which are just plain songs without soul. ( there was a time when he was working on say 40 - 50 fims per year, some had his most frustrating output).
  
  ARR sounds repetitive not necessarily in style, but exact bits of music, as though they have been cut-and-pasted.
  
  mmm..not many points on my side :-) yes, I agree that there are set of songs of ARR which are awfully similar :-) But IR is no exception. ARR does what IR did over a period of 25 years - compose new songs as well as recycle some old stuff. MSV was no exception except the fact that his share in recylce is very low compared to these two (one example - vaaza ninaiththaal vaazalaam and andru vanthathum athE nila).
  
  It just boils down to:
  
  (1) IR is talented and so is ARR
  (2) IR had his peak and ARR is having his.
  
  Both are assets to TFM.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Sun Apr 9 18:40:16 EDT 2000
  
  MS,
  
  evLO pattimanRathtula naduvarA irunthirukkInga? :-))
  
  anyways, the "italian" pasta is nothing but an improvisation (not necessarily an improvement :-) ) of the chinese noodles. (this is a historical fact!) also, do you know what is the "inspiration" of tempura (the japanese fried appetizer)? keep guessing :-))
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Sun Apr 9 19:00:24 EDT 2000
  
  How bout Pizza, Arul ? do you have a serious stuffed-naan-ancestor-arguement for the same ? :-) Anyway, if you donot like Italian. please sustitute the word "chinese" for Italian in my arguements :-) It does the same good.
  
  (By patti mandrams, do you mean to say my statements have an overtone of conclusion ? Sorry, I did not mean it. It is just my opinion. 'll see to it that I donot make such liyoni type statements in the future :-))
  
  
• From: Athi (@ netcache32.mot.com) on: Sun Apr 9 19:56:07 EDT 2000
  
  Looks like MS is trying to become an unbiased music lover by appreciating all that he can find which is supposedly good in ARR's music and
  trying to find fault in IR's music as much as he can.
  
  The argument about sounding similar makes me have a hearty laugh. Does MS want to conclude that ARR doesn't sound more repetitive than IR? This according to him when IR was composing 40-50 movies/year and ARR is composing 4-5 movies/year. Also the conclusion that MSV didn't sound so much similar than IR. What is the basis of that? I can give so many examples of songs of MSV which sound exactly same in the musical content. May be MS forgot the biggest innovation that was made by IR and which MSV and ARR could never even think of, the interludes. For atleast 15 years, the interludes in the IR songs never got repeated and about 400-500 movies were composed that time.
  
  I have to agree with what MS concludes. ARR is talented in choosing the right songs to recycle and mix properly. I don't know what the second conclusion means, is it with respect to the number of movies/year or the amount of money made? If it is with respect to the amount of money made, then ARR is currently having a very good time in that crores are being paid for composing 5-6 songs(ofcourse Sabesh Murali is
  there for composing some worthless thing called
  BGM).
  
  Athi
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Sun Apr 9 20:17:25 EDT 2000
  
  Athi:
  
  Looks like MS is trying to become an unbiased music lover by appreciating all that he can find which is supposedly good in ARR's music and
  trying to find fault in IR's music as much as he can
  
  ooo..Am I trying to bceome one? FYI, I have evolved pretty much and I am just requesting those who have not, to evolve soon :-) (NOM).
  
  IF you feel you can quote numerous examples of MSV which he has recycled, I am ready to quote IR's. Examples are the basis you ask for !
  
  MSV and ARR could never even think of interludes ? Grossly wrong ! They have given wonderful interludes too. Of course, IR just goes miles ahead when it comes to interludes. What about tunes ? MSV would give IR a run then !
  
  And coming to ARR:
  
  His tunes are new and fresh ! Just the way it sounded when IR took over from MSV. When we gave MSV more than 30 years and IR more than 20 years, why not wait for another 10 years atleast for ARR to prove his mettle ?
  
  People liked IR because he was unlike MSV. People like ARR because he is unlike IR. If we need a musician "like" IR to replace IR, I feel that would be stupid. Change is what everybody expected and ARR has given them.
  
  You did agree atlast with my conclusion ? Thx :-) and you concluded that ARR recycles tactfully ? Thx :-) That just compares with IR then. (I said both were "talented" :-)(NOM)
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments