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Same raga used for different situations

Topic started by swarapriyan/Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.23.231) on Fri Oct 23 23:39:22 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hope this shall prove a feast to IR fans. IR has invariably used the same raga for conveying different situations eg:

Raga Mohanam:

(1)Vandhadhey kungumam - love
(2)Nilavu thoongum neram - lullaby
(3)Ninnukori varnam - feet tapper
(4)Idhayam oru kovil - meloncholy
(5)Paruvamey - freshness of the dawn

There may be use of anya swaras. but that must not matter to a great extent. This thread may also discuss the works of other MDs. But the appreciation shall be better if different songs in the same raga of an MD is discussed. this may help us get a good look into the versatility of MD.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: ichiboy (@ 202.54.33.213) on: Fri Oct 30 12:25:54 EST 1998
  
  Hi,
  ARR has used Panthuvarali in
  1.Indira - Acham acham illai - More like a rhyme
  2.Hai Rama - Rangeela - A Sensuous song
  The situations are poles apart.
  Also I find that many of ARR's Ragam based duets have some Shankarabharanam in it.
  1.Adhisayam - Jeans
  2.Thoda Thoda - Indira
  3.Telephone Manippol(Stanza-Vellai Nadhiye part) - Indian
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Fri Oct 30 14:44:25 EST 1998
  
  Dear Ragapriyan
  
  First let me congratulate you for making some good observations. You are absolutely right in saying that the true nature of a 'raga' as defined by the classical school (be it carnatic or hindustani) is not only a set of notes or swaras but also includes a number of variables that are added to the swaras including the exact pitch (for example the R1 in mayamalavagowla is not exactly the same as the one in Varali although both are R1), the gamakam, etc... Also in delineating a 'raga' there are swara phrases, rules of approaching a note from a specific note, nakampitham, kampitham, rakthipoorvam.... or so on an so forth.
  
  There are so many rules built into what constitutes a proper form (raga swaroopam) that it is not easy to explain in words. Even the experts in the fields sometimes disagree and in south for example there is the Tangore school and Mysore school of thought and in Hindustani the numerous Gharana's.
  
  Hence, I have to agree that it is pretty darn difficult to change the swaroopam of the raga (ie the form/appearance or the feeling it evokes) if all the rules of the 'raga' rendition are followed. However, what musicians/composers typically do is to take some liberties and tinker around with certain aspects of the raga which can give a new feel/appearance or emotion to the raga. Now can this altered raga stillbe called by its original name?---I don't know the answer and I don't think there is any definite answer. I think it is a gray zone and when the tinkering reaches a certain point (which is entirely arbitary) most people would hesistate to call it the original raga.
  
  There are numerous sources on the web on classical music primers that may help to explain some of my discussion and I would encourage interested DFer's to go thru. Let me give you an example to illustrate my point. As Lakshmi (as we used to called Lakshminarayanan Srirangam--I know him because he was my junior in college and a good friend and we have discussed and performed music together for college culturals) writes in his now famous "Classical Illayaraja" set of articles, raja has never composed a Bhairavi. Why? Bhairavi is a raga which needs certain key swara phrases to make it Bhairavi and first of all trying to play Bhairavi on a keyboard is very frustrating unless you have very good control over the pitch bender. Bhairavi's restriction IMO makes it very difficult to create a light (as in light music) version of the raga and hence very difficult to compose cinematically unless the situation requires a completely classical number. In olden days a lot of songs were done in Bhairavi but all these songs had a certain classical feel to it (as expected) and the public at that time accepted that amount of pure classicism in a MKT movie.
  
  Going even a step further, I feel even the individual notes (swaras) in the context of the Sa (or the base note) have a feeling and emotion themselves. But again, these are better brought out when they associate with a certain series of notes (swaras).
  
  Just to end this part of the discussion (which I hope will continue) I will put forth this question. Everybody is familiar with Hamsadhwani--- which is Sa,R2,G3,Pa, N3 Sa and Sa, N3,Pa,G3,R2,Sa in its aroganam and avaroganam is a raga which exudes beauty, happiness and other positive attributes (the full swaroopam can be discussed fully only if I explain all the nuances of its rules which is impossible without a demonstration) is very pleasant to hear. So far as I know, I have not come accross a single rendition which gives a serious, sad, meloncholic or negative flavour to this raga. In my humble opinion it is almost impossible to present hamsadhwani in a meloncholic manner (although I would loved to be proved wrong by a talented composer).
  
  I will stop here for now and would love to hear other opinions
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Fri Oct 30 14:54:40 EST 1998
  
  SHASHI,
  ragapriyan's main questions or queries are
  
  1. is composing a happy song in a raaga like muraari or subhapanduvaraali a big deal for a good composer?
  
  2. and we have associated certain moods with certain raagas traditionally and so mukhari means only a sad mood and so on. but actually it's not that big deal. also why is sogam or happiness associated with certain raagas?
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Fri Oct 30 15:25:23 EST 1998
  
  pl. read muraari as mukhari, thanx.
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.26.37) on: Sun Nov 1 03:55:57 EST 1998
  
  Dear Shashi,
  
  Beauty of a posting.
  
  
  
  
• From: raghu (@ proxya.emirates.net.ae) on: Sun Nov 1 14:00:40 EST 1998
  
  Another good song in mohanam is "Kannan oru
  Kaikkuzandai" from Bhadrakali.P.Susheela is all
  sweetness in this lovely song.
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on: Mon Nov 2 13:14:07 EST 1998
  
  sashi: Isn't 'muthal muthal raaga deepam' from payanangaL mudivadhillai in Hamsadhwani? I wouldn't call it mlancholic but it certainly isn't light-hearted.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Mon Nov 2 16:24:36 EST 1998
  
  Dear Ravi
  
  Muthal muthal raaga deepam from payanangal mudivadhillai is not in Hamsadhwani, but based on Hamsanandhi.
  
  Thogai illamayil from the same movie is; but it also has an extra note the D1. A lot of times Raja adds either a D1 or a M2 to his hamsadhwani to change its character.
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.26.207) on: Mon Nov 2 17:41:08 EST 1998
  
  Dear Ravi,
  
  As shashi pointed out it is in hamsanandhi. When I say this i am reminded of two other songs.
  
  "Raththiriyil Pooththirukkum" and "noorandu vaazhum paadalithu". The fromer one is a romance number and the latter is I suppose a dance song. It is by Jeyachandran in the film "Oorellam un paattu". Thus we have three different situations in the same raga.
  
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Mon Nov 2 18:56:14 EST 1998
  
  Dear vijay
  
  To answer your first question, I will have to explain the glitch in the question itself which makes it difficult to give a simple yes or no answer. Is composing a happy song in Mukhari or Subhapanthuvarali a big deal for a good composer? As I started to explain in my previous posting, just the aroganam and avaroganam or in other words the scale (if you like to call it that) of these ragas do not constitute the raga itself. In other words, Subhapanthuvarali has a particular aroganam and avaroganam, i.e the aroganam and avaroganam is just "one of the properties" of this. But to call a musical peice 'Subhapanthuvarali', you may not only look at aroganam/avaroganam but other phrases, microtones etc. That is why I am not sure if a happy song is composed with the aroganam/avaroganam (scale) of Subhapanthuvarali, should you still call it by its original name.
  
  An example may illustrate my point. Lets say Subhapanthuvarali = Coffee. The aroganam/avaroganam (scale/notes) = coffee beans.
  Icecream with coffee flavour = happy song in Subhapanthuvarali.
  Coffee definitely has to have coffee beans as an ingredient certainly, but coffee beans by themselves are not the same as coffee. But you can tinker the coffee and make it into icecream with coffee flavour which still has the beans as an ingredient, however should the icecream with coffee flavour be called coffee? You decide!!!
  
  Now to answer the second part of your question--I still feel it is still an accomplishment to compose a happy song with the aroganam/avaroganam of Subhapanthuvarali or Mukhari. Why? Because, as I mention in my previous posting, even the individual notes themselves( in the context of a base note, Sa) have a character/mood/flavour. Hence, to come up with a way of formulating or presenting these notes so as to change the character of the individual notes should be commended.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Mon Nov 2 19:04:22 EST 1998
  
  Hi vijay
  
  Please read my last line as " Hence, to come up with a way of formulating or presenting these notes so as to MASK the character of the individual notes should be commended".
  
  You cannot completely change the inherent quality of a given note, but can try to mask it by a variety of techniques.
  
  
• From: Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Mon Nov 2 23:29:15 EST 1998
  
  Shashi:
  
  Your postings are very educative. I am a beginner trying to learn a few
  things about Classical music and I have been reading a few primers on
  Carnatic music theory. Your posting reinforce my understanding of the
  raagaa definitions. The coffee-ice cream example is very nice. I would
  very much appreciate if you continue giving many more educative postings.
  
  You mentioned about some useful material being available on the web. Can
  you give the details?
  
  Regarding moods and raagaas, what you are saying is that while it is
  possible that the gaamakaas could play an important role in associating a
  particular mood to a raagaa, it is the scale itself that is the major
  cause for the mood being attached to a raagaa. To me even "sad music" and
  "happy music" are unclear concepts. Obviously some phrases of swaras give
  a happy feeling and some give a sad feeling. Take Hamsadhwani for example.
  What is it that makes it "happy"? Is it the spacing of the swaras? On the
  keyboard the distances between consecutive swaras for Hamsadhwani go as..
  2 2 3 4 1 (then cyclic). Is it the large spreadout of the swaras that is
  causing happiness? Now Mohanam is another pentatonic raagaa which differs
  from Hamsadhwani only in that N3 is replaced by D2 (a shift of 2keys); but
  it makes such a big difference. I see a lot more TFM songs in Mohanam as
  compared to Hamsadhwani (at least going by the newtfmpage list). What is it
  that makes it easy to compose in Mohanam when compared to Hamsadhwani?
  I am sure you would have done your own research into some of these kinds
  of issues. I hope you will continue to take some time to share your
  valuable insights here. Thanks in advance.
  
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Tue Nov 3 18:25:52 EST 1998
  
  Hi Shashi and everyone,
  
  Thought I will post something connected with the thread.
  
  I listened to "Iniya malargal" from the movie Poonthottam yesterday. I think it is based on Ahirbhairavi, but looks like a radically different presentation of the raga.
  
  Can you guys listen to it and let me know ??
  
  If it is really Ahirbhairavi - this song seems to improve on its scope so well.
  
  Mukund
  
  

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