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Same raga used for different situations

Topic started by swarapriyan/Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.23.231) on Fri Oct 23 23:39:22 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hope this shall prove a feast to IR fans. IR has invariably used the same raga for conveying different situations eg:

Raga Mohanam:

(1)Vandhadhey kungumam - love
(2)Nilavu thoongum neram - lullaby
(3)Ninnukori varnam - feet tapper
(4)Idhayam oru kovil - meloncholy
(5)Paruvamey - freshness of the dawn

There may be use of anya swaras. but that must not matter to a great extent. This thread may also discuss the works of other MDs. But the appreciation shall be better if different songs in the same raga of an MD is discussed. this may help us get a good look into the versatility of MD.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Sriram (@ bbn-cache-3.cisco.com) on: Tue Oct 27 09:48:40 EST 1998
  
  Raag : Chakravaham
  Song : Ullathil nalla Ullam from Karnan
  Situation : Pathos
  This raaga normally shows a tone of sadness when
  played but IR used it for a romantic song which illustrated the inner feelings of the hero and the heroine
  The Song is Nee Paadhi Naan Paadhi Kanna from Pudhu Arthanganal
  
  The same raaga has also been used by A.R.Rahman
  in which he has copied KV Mahadevans style used in Ullathil Nalla ullam . The song is Vidukathaya from the film Muthu and it is also a Pathos
  
  
  
  
• From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ fast.fast.de) on: Tue Oct 27 11:57:24 EST 1998
  
  Hmmm... Chakravaham is also called 'Allah' ragam by some :-) The daily prayers in the mosque are supposed to be in this scale :-)
  
  G.Ramaswamy
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Tue Oct 27 12:25:28 EST 1998
  
  sriram,
  is'nt the raga of nee padhi = raga of kanmani nee vara kathirundhen = raga of oomai nenjin sondham = malayamaarudham?
  
  
• From: YGEETHA (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Oct 28 07:19:37 EST 1998
  
  Vijay: I believe that 'Nee padhi'- Keladi Kannmani is in Chakravakham/Aahir Bairavhi....
  Malayamaarutham is a janya of Chakravakham. IR has also written some greats in Malayamaarutham, e.g. Kanmani Nee Vara Kaathirthen - Thendrale Ennaith Thodu
  
  
• From: Chandrasekaran (@ global25.citicorp.com) on: Wed Oct 28 11:45:09 EST 1998
  
  How about IRs Hamsanadham ?
  
  1. Thendral vandhu ennai thodum
  2. Sorgamae endraalum... adhu namooru
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.23.231) on: Wed Oct 28 12:08:03 EST 1998
  
  One of the recent Hamsanadham of Ir is from "GURU". It is Minnaram. Is "OmNamaha" in hamasanadham too ? Why does not some take the task of explaining the songs and the situations in greater detail ?
  
  
  
• From: Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Wed Oct 28 23:16:11 EST 1998
  
  I have a few points to mention...
  
  1. This is an interesting topic as every one says. But it is mostly turning out to be a
  listing exercise; songs already compiled in a newtfmpage are being simply repeated; that's
  all. I am a beginner trying to develop a working knowledge (i.e., a good listening
  ability) of carnatic and other forms of music in relation to tfm, and I feel most
  participants in the forum are like that. What I and others like me look for are some
  interesting and useful hints from the more knowledgeable participants that will help
  us learn a few technical things about music. A simple listing exercise serves little
  use. For example one thing that would be right away very useful is the following.
  For each song mentioned, please take some effort to actually type-in the notes for some
  key lines of each song and then say how well it fits into a raagaa, how some foreign
  notes have crept in at a particular place, actually point to a phrase and say how
  shades of another raagaa is there etc. Murali Shankar is doing this somewhat. I would
  very much appreciate if other experts also take the same route.
  
  2. I mainly see IR and MSV being mentioned. But I feel GR and KVM are also big names
  in this particular topic. We should note the fact that the newtfmpage collection of
  tfm songs in raagaas is highly incomplete and could have very much missed many good
  contributions by GR and KVM.
  
  3. I have one important question. Let me first quote two paragraphs that I read from
  two primers on Carnatic music written by Sriram and Ramesh Mahadevan, about raagaas..
  
  
  Chaarukesi can be seen to have the same purvangam as Sankaraabharanam and the same
  uttarangam as Shanmugapriya or Thodi. However, singing the purvangam portion of
  Sankaraabharanam and then the uttarangam of Shanmugapriya or Thodi has very little
  to do with the true swaroopam of Chaarukesi. This is like arguing that glueing a lion's
  head to a human torso results in the creation of a new being, when all it
  really does is create neither a lion nor a human being. The resulting creature is a poor
  excuse for a human or a lion and can be seen only as such. The use of gamakkas is also
  intricately connected to the concept of raga swaroopam and even though swaras may be the
  same, the gamakkas are often different, leading to ragas that are quite distinct in character.
  
  A caveat. I am using the word 'Ragam' in a loose sense here. A Ragam is not just a scale or a bunch
  of keys - it is more than that. Remember, I told you over and over and over that microtones are
  everything in Indian classical music and keys in a keyboard are simply digitized approximations. The
  seven white keys alone are not enough to give the resulting music the flavor of ragam
  'Shankarabharanam' - it is those seven keys PLUS all the associated microtones (I know, I am
  being vague, but there is no simple way to get around it !) which constitute the 'Shankarabharanam'
  ragam. In fact, you may hear shades of Shankarabharanam when someone plays the Western C
  Major or Hindustani Bilaval. But the 'shades' are different for C Major and Bilaval and
  Shankarabharanam. C Major does not have any gamakam, Bilaval has some and Shankarabharanam
  has another set of gamakams. It is important to listen to some music and figure out if you can
  identify an artiste go through gamakams. A simple rolling of the tongue, subtle jumps and modulation
  or vibrattos are all indicative of gamakams.
  
  
  So, what I understand is that a raagaa is not just the particular selection of notes (plus
  particular order of notes in some cases). There is more: the proper microtones (gaamakaas)
  associated with each raagaa. Also, I have read that for each raagaa there are particular
  notes on which you lay stress, some phrases are often repeated etc. Now my question is: What
  are these additional qualifications that actually define a raaga swaroopam, and, whether the
  tfm songs made in raagaas actually have the proper raaga swaroopams?
  
  4. I still don't understand what is so great or difficult (I mean for great composers like IR,
  MSV, KVM, GR and the likes) to take a particular raagaa and create songs of different moods
  out of it. By appropriately selecting a rhythm/beat and speed shouldn't it be easy for them to
  create any mood out of a given raagaa? My guess is that these MDs chose some raagaa simply
  because that was covenient; in fact most of the time, I guess they just choose some subset of
  notes without thinking much about a raagaa at all! If you catch any of these great creators,
  pay enough money (or motivate them in other ways), specify a raagaa and the required mood for
  the song, I am very sure that they will come-up with a great catchy tune. So what is so great
  in saying things like.. MSV is the best at Bagheshre or Ah, has anyone made a beatsy
  number with Latangi like IR? etc. Instead of Latangi if you had specified Sarasangi (Ma different)
  or Kamavardhini (Ri different) I am sure IR would have come-up with an equally good beatsy
  number like chinna raasaavE chiththeRumbu ennai kadikkudhu. Is it not? Of course, the song
  will then have some differences from what we are used to hearing now; but my point is that, with
  a somewhat differnt set of notes, IR would have created an equally catchy tune! If that is true,
  what is the big deal in saying that various moods are created with a single raagaa etc?
  
  5. A related thing... How come the westerners mainly operate only with the major and minor ways
  of note selection and here we are fussing so much about raagaas etc? I am sure there are some
  technicalities here. Some expert please shed some light.
  
  I very much hope that such a thread will take a more educative trend.
  
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.23.231) on: Wed Oct 28 23:22:50 EST 1998
  
  Hope Ragapriyan and Swarapriyan are going to clash
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Thu Oct 29 02:06:35 EST 1998
  
  ragapriyan,
  
  composing a song has more to do with the creative ability of the composer. if u take the case of IR, no producer or director gives him any suggestions. he chooses his own raagas for compositions. to bring the different moods using the same raaga is beyond any keyboard notes or swara patterns which u are demanding.
  u need to have a very good imagination power and creative skills which is god given.
  
  for example the raaga subhapanduvaraali is associated only with soga songs. but IR's creative mind has created a teasing song 'kandupudichen kadhal noiya kandupudichen' from guru sishyan. many composers don't even think about doing such things.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Thu Oct 29 03:01:36 EST 1998
  
  Vijay:
  
  to bring the different moods using the same raaga
  is beyond any keyboard notes or swara patterns
  which u are demanding
  
  I don't understand what you are saying here. Please
  explain.
  
  I feel there is a LOT of hype associated with
  raagaas and moods. For example, there is a
  Hindustani raagaa named Dipak. It was
  so named, it seems, because a proper rendering
  of it can not only light lamps, but also set
  the singer aflame. Forget even such stories.
  Let's take a more realistic view. Consider
  Darbari Kanada, for example. This is supposed
  to be regal raagaa with a dignified air to it.
  The reason for that is because classical melodies
  in this raagaa tend towards the lower register
  (particularly in descent, they do not stop at
  Sa but proceed down to the lower octave); the
  tempo too is slow, adding to this effect and
  the melodic phrases are complex and involuted.
  (All these I am recalling from some material I
  have read somewhere.) What I am trying to point out
  is that, in the traditional way of using raagaas
  certain moods got attached with those raagaas,
  that's all. There is nothing too much above that.
  Take Mukhari, for example. It is traditionally used
  for sOga feeling. Now, when the movie Sivagangai
  Seemai was being produced, Kannadhasan asked
  MSV: why don't we make a jolly duet using Mukhari?
  MSV said ok, and composed the tune, kanavu
  kaNdEn naan kanavu kaNdEn, an excellent
  duet. GR used the same raagaa for a duet in the
  movie Ambikapathy, even earlier. I don't think
  they struggled to make a duet tune out of Mukhari.
  Similarly is the case with any talented composer.
  What I am saying is: catch hold of any talented composer,
  specify any raagaa and specify any mood that you
  want to be brought out, he/she should be able to
  do that without much difficulty. I don't think
  the specification of the raagaa puts any great
  constraint. That's all. Now this is my (layman's)
  view. If someone disagrees, please give convincing
  arguments. I would be delighted, for example,
  if someone comes out with a detailed explanation
  as to why the placement of the notes corresponding
  to Mukari makes it difficult to bring out a happy
  feeling.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Thu Oct 29 13:31:54 EST 1998
  
  ragapriyan,
  u might want to ask people like srikanth who are already there in the composing field to give u a detailed explanation on the placement of notes, etc
  
  ..."catch hold of any talented composer"....
  
  easily said. the fact is there are not many inTFM.
  though i have not played any instrument i feel that musical notations, notes etc. are just a means of writing down your thought process on a piece of paper.
  
  to compose a happy song in a sad raaga like muraari, u need to think completely in a different line is my opinion. i do not frankly know whether u can just play around with the notes and produce a happy song.
  
  why does mukhari evoke a sad mood in everyone? is it a inherent feature of the raaga? i do not think it has been just like that branded as a soga raaga. there is definitely some other reason which might be perhaps beyond any technical explanation.
  
  

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