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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: The Fan (@ spider-wd024.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Oct 1 01:21:04 EDT 1998
  
  It was the other way around. MSV's songs were inspirations for those hindi songs!!!!
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.23.148) on: Thu Oct 1 01:43:28 EDT 1998
  
  lack of melody for MGR songs. most of the so called patriotic songs of MGR lacked melody. naan ungal veetu pillai, naan aanaiyittal,
  uzhaikkum kaigale etc. might have pleased the masses but not a discerning music lover.
  by melody what i mean is songs like
  naalai intha velai by PS, paartha nyabagam etc.
  MSV might have been under pressure, but still i feel that for a lot of songs melody has been sacrificed and the song sounds apt only to be blasted at an election meeting or something like that though the lyrical content is good.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-41.il.us.ibm.net) on: Thu Oct 1 08:21:28 EDT 1998
  
  vijay:
  Lack of melody in Mgr songs: No way there were few songs for mgr meetings but you cannot generalize MGR songs are non-melody songs.
  "Nan anai iital" - it has very good melody.
  If you look deeply into MSV songs the pallavi ends always in 2 differnet tunes. eg: Nan aanai iital - "Avar kanner kadalalile vedamaatar" - has 2 melody score. There are many songs like this.
  BTW :90% of MSV songs were for lyrics. This is a great thing to do.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-41.il.us.ibm.net) on: Thu Oct 1 08:35:42 EDT 1998
  
  Hi
  As this thread is about his drawbacks
  Using too much of L.R.Iswari is one if drawback
  Msv as not well versed in mordern western pop Music,
  though he was good in jazz and old form of western Rock music. He has given songs like "adavaralam" the chrous and the drum scores in this songs are remarkable pieces.
  I am not able to think any mistakes he made.
  
  I would just say he is a complete self contained musician.
  
  Here I like say about few ragas he litrally played with - Abhogi , we all know Abhogi is very callsical raga. But MSV has handled it very differently in a great light music number "vanakam palamurai sonen" ,same with hindolem - nambaou singari.
  Karaharapriya : a very tough carnatic raga, He used it for a pop like songs in Manitharul manikkam - "I will sing for you." - Pure Karaharapriya.
  We all know the famous Mahadhi,Kalyana vasantham - has done more numbers in Kalayana vasantham than any body till date.
  Dharamavathi : a classical raga - MSV's gave us in the form of halo my dear wrong number, ammanai azaithuvedum kanmanai, Kadal Kadal endru pesa kannan vandanoo
  
  Guys you have not listned to him much , I do not blame you for that.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Thu Oct 1 11:47:19 EDT 1998
  
  I do agree with Srikanth.
  Infact, MSV set the precedence for using ragas for different moods. For e.g, dharmavathi for a sexy song like "Hello my dear". Raja followed with "Meendum meendum vaa", Rahman followed with "Musafir" from "Vandhae Mataram" (US release). "Azhagiya Tamizh Magal" is a well orchestrated song. For that matter, all songs from "Anbae Vaa"
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Thu Oct 1 11:52:50 EDT 1998
  
  MSV limitation would be his lack of knowledge for orchestration. He is a melody machine. For e.g, "Unnakenna melae ninrai" from Simla Special. One of the best melodies in Rag Sindhubhairavi. But the orchestration is mediocre. The man got carried away with the Thavil. Especially in the second interlude. It is too loud. The song would have sounded better with Raja's touch. That is why the Raja-MSV combo could bring great music to us.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Thu Oct 1 13:36:59 EDT 1998
  
  Since this is a thread for MSV's defects (deficiencies maybe?), I will just give the location of the archived thread where MGR/MSV songs are covered. MSV handled more musical genres in one movie,"Kudiyirundha Kovil" than anybody else. For details check: http://www.newtfmpage.com/forum/24565.13122.22:50:42.html
  
  
• From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Thu Oct 1 15:07:48 EDT 1998
  
  His early 60's acheivements notwithstanding, it was during MSV's time in the late 60's and early 70's, Hindi songs became very popular in Madras, especially among the collegians. Remember Bobby, Kabhi Kabhi , Yadhon ki bharat etc. He really tested our patience in the early 70's with songs in the movies like En magan, anabe aaruyirae, kasturi vijayam etc. It is easy to quote Aboorva ragangaL, AvaL oru thodarkathai etc..because it is easy to forget the bad ones after 20 years.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Thu Oct 1 15:26:12 EDT 1998
  
  When you think of something testing the patience I am reminded of MSV's singing at the end of Vasantha Kala Nathikalile when Kamal is drowned by Rajini. Intolerable - IMO.
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: easwaran hariharan (@ 169-66-113.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Oct 1 23:09:21 EDT 1998
  
  I agree with you ravy. I feel MSV was very
  inconsistent. He had more bad films in the late
  60s and 70s than good ones, and considering that it was just few years after his seperation from TKR, ought to go against him.
  Also, most of his songs, table beats change so much, it is kind of spoiling the
  whole song. In Songs like mella varum kattru, orutharam, angey malaimayakkam, there were unnecessary tabla changes, and they did not fit with the songs at all. People like srikanth can give more info about this, but I did not like most of his songs, mainly for this.
  When he was with TKR, generally songs had smooth flow with few beat changes.
  I dont feel right to credit MSV alone for
  the songs like 'yarr andtho nilave', where the credit should also go to TKR. TKR did fail
  as the musician, when he was on his own.
  But one can not ignore his contributions with MSV. I feel when he was around with MSV songs were well orchestrated .
  
  But from mid 70s, I saw big change in MSV music. His music was much smoother, with very minimal beat changes. His contemparies at that time, VK, SG and even IR might have influenced him. I feel, his scores in KB films and other songs in that period, were some of the best melodies, I have heard. He really fought hard with IR ( sad to see IR not doing with ARR). It was a losing battle, nevertheless. He was alive in parts upto mid 80s ( nilave malre).
  
  I should agree that his tunes are still very hummable and sweet, compared to any other composers in TFM.
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: vijay (@ ch-0206.ce.sc.edu) on: Thu Oct 1 23:43:56 EDT 1998
  
  guys,
  let us stick to MSV's musical or composing defects. that MSV did not give good songs in the early seventies or late sixties is not a musical defect.
  slowly this thread is also heading towards another MSV-IR comparison.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-56.il.us.ibm.net) on: Fri Oct 2 08:53:59 EDT 1998
  
  Hi
  Vijay:you are right - all road leads to rome.
  greatest joke:
  SG,IR influenced MSV - Poor chap! gets firing at this age, after serving for 50 yrs
  Thank god ARR was not in the list.
  Srilkath
  
  
• From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Fri Oct 2 11:38:32 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: How did you come up with the number 50 years? Including his acting forays??
  
  MSV started sounding repettitive. (to me it was deficiency then)
  ---------------------------------
  
  Take these two songs which came around the same time. VaLamana Bhoomiyil - Orae vaanam orae bhoomi and sugamana sindhanayil - Taxi Driver. Their intro. music sounded the same (I'm not naming a few other songs that also sounded similar to these as I don't recall them readily). Probably it was too much expect from someone who had 30 years of exp. then.
  
  
• From: easwaran hariharan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Fri Oct 2 12:34:12 EDT 1998
  
  srikanth,
  I am not at all offened by your comments. I dont have a technical expertise to appreciate music,the
  way you do. But I do have my own preferences and I really dont want to change, irrespective of how stupid it may be sound.
  I am getting a feeling that you have some soft corner towards MSV. I am just quoting what u said
  in a diff thread ( no 1 md in india).
  
  >Hi,
  
  > "I would say IR is nowhere compared to SD >Burman. ":
  > In Physical size or What ?
  > Just joking...
  
  > SDB has done good work in the past agreed,
  > But Raja has done many things which I will >put one by one . (It is a break for me to after >speaking for AR in the AR's vs
  > Raja case.
  > )
  
  > Can you name 5 best chord progressions by >SDB has done. SDB is more Indian or Hindustani. - >classical based tunes...
  > Pretty poor in arrangements,
  > I will give you many technical stuff of >Rajas creativity.
  > Simple ones
  > -----> 1. The Bass parts in Vannam
  > in Anjali -
  > 2 The Tune of Valai osai kala kala
  > 3. Azage Azge devathai .... in Raja parvai.
  
  > SD is famous only for this tune.
  > But Raja with the tune - the music scores - >The BGMS etc.. he is a master in arranging them >than SDB.Rajas agrees that
  > SDB is the best musicians -shows his >courtsy...
  > He is the person who removed the HINDI >domination in the South indian film music.
  
  > Srikanth
  
  My intention is not to point at any thing, and you have every reason to dismiss 1t.
  
  IMO, what ever u said about SDB is more or less true for MSV also. I still can not understand, how
  MSV can be >>>> IR where SDB <<<< IR. I dont really believe in comparisions like this, but hey
  I wanted to ask, and thats it.
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Fri Oct 2 14:08:31 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Easwaran
  This has become a Srikanth Review!...
  I have already told (accepted) that I have soft corner for this guy. just refer to the old posting in this thread, you would have saved more time.
  Frankly - I am learning to set the tune from MSV, Set BGM like Raja and present it like ARr.
  (if you listen to my first ever web album - I feel sad for it as just few of tfmers here reviewed it - My tunes will sound like MSV continues and arragement like Raja - counter points chords etc.).
  
  There were postings against MSV which if felt was
  unwarrented.
  Anyway he has also crap songs done, his Orcherstration is not as good as IR, the main reason for Raja's success over him. But as a whole MSV was first man who I knew as a film musician. Yes! I have a soft corner for him - I agreed this at start of this thread
  Please refer it!
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
  
• From: Krishna (@ mailserver01.sb.com) on: Fri Oct 2 15:08:01 EDT 1998
  
  And you have an issue when someone has the same feelings for Raja ...calling them "hardcore fantics"...thus dismissing any sensible arguements they make....
  
  Hmmm! Makes sense..that's fair...isnt'it Guys!
  
  

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