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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-10.il.us.ibm.net) on: Thu Feb 4 09:27:17 EST 1999
  
  Hi Raj,
  Regarding violin interludes :
  Once again you have not heard much, there are many violin interludes during 60's music. Violin scores was one the major player in MSV's score.
  
  WC : you say MSV has not achived 20% of Raja's wc scores ----> this does not raja great.
  Raja has not achived 20% of ARR harmonying does this mean ARR is great, no way.
  
  So I told you earlier, for you IR sounds best, for me I feel someone has done this before.
  
  IR fans have heard only 20%-30% of MSV and talk about MSV's work, whereus most MSV fan has heard 90% of Rajas score,
  Have you heard our penai parthu nialvai parthen :
  This is same sandam Pudhu mappilaiku in Aboorava S., but Raja did little more arrangement over this,agreed, but
  Raja had a something to refer from the past, MSV did not have anything, so he is great.
  Who developed a songs structure.
  Pallavi, first bgm, Saranam1, second bgm , Saranam 2:
  How many songs are there for Raja without this structure, all the songs he did were like this.
  
  Have you heard
  Anthanal nagam, a different kind of a song.
  Sipi irukuthu - totally a new kind.
  Kadvul amithu vaitha medai - a totally a new kind.
  Junior : a new structure
  Ponal pogatum poda - done with 3 instruments.,
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Feb 4 12:34:20 EST 1999
  
  Suresh! Aiyo! Ippadi ellam solli Pullarikka vekkatheenga!! IR-nu sollittu adhe sentence-la enn peyara?:)
  
  Srikanth..Im coming to your points..One moment please..(No, I am not giving up, though you are taking the discussions to a higher-plane. Maybe, I shouldnt have confessed my ignorance of music , afterall..Ippadi technical termgalale adikkareengale!:).
  
  Madhan, Srinath, Vijay, Suresh, Shankar, Karthik, SM...: Ippadi ennai thaniya matti vuttuttu pogalaama?... srinatha... nee dhaanepa karthi-ai challenge pannina. Neeyum Kaanom. Karthiyum kanom!
  
  Still, IR-Ratna-nu award vera kuduthuttenga! So, I will fight on..even if srikanth shreds me to pieces:)
  (BTW, Srikanth , "IR,as superb lyricist thread-la unga absence fel pandraangalame:))
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Feb 4 13:11:43 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth! Now to business! BTW, Since I have lot of work to catch up with ..this may be my last post for some time to come. One last ditch effort:)
  
  1. "Regarding violin interludes :
  Once again you have not heard much, there are many violin interludes during 60's music. Violin scores was one the major player in MSV's score. "
  
  Were these as good as Raja's? To refute me , you have to say :" MSV's violin scores are better than Raja's". Now, you have said clearly that "MSV's melodies, Raga-touching werr superior to Raja".
  Since I dont know aboutRaagas , I take your statement at face value. Likewise, if you state the same `about violin scores, then I have to give up my claim. The question is , can you even think of making such a claim, if objectivity rules?
  
  2.WC : "you say MSV has not achived 20% of Raja's wc scores ----> this does not raja great.
  Raja has not achived 20% of ARR harmonying does this mean ARR is great, no way. "
  
  ARR has achieved only harmony(whatever that might be..I trust your musical knowledge..so I am no even questioning this ..even though I think srinath refuted this point about harmony somewhere) and rECORDING better than Raja but pales before raja in other aspects. That is the reason Raja is greater than ARR.
  
  OTOH, Raja was atleast 50% as good as MSV in CARNATIC, certainly 500% better than MSV in WCM(I say this because you have accepted that MSV's WC is 20% of Raja's(and I trust your musical sense!) ...in mathematical terms ,this means Raja is 500% better!),certainly better than MSV in folk, certainly better than MSV in BGM.
  
  Now, if you and I attended school together , suppose I got :
  1. 50 in English
  2. 60 in Tamil
  3. 90 in Maths
  4. 60 in Science
  And you got :
  1. 40 in English
  2. 70 in tamil
  3. 70 in Maths
  4. 100 in Science.
  Further assuming all others got less aggregate than both of us :
  
  Who is the class topper?
  Obviously srikanth!
  Likewise:
  MSV gets :
  1. 80 in melody
  2. 80 in Carnatic
  3. 15 in WC
  4. 30 in BGM
  Raja gets:
  1. 60 in Melody
  2. 40 in carnatic
  2. 75 in WC
  4. 80 in BGM
  
  Again , the above figures are not arbitary. Why?
  If you notice closely, I am giving 20% of Raja's marks in WC to MSV(Raja gets 75, MSV gets 20% of 75= 15) because you have accepted that MSV's WC is 20% of Raja. Similarly, i claimed Raja has achieved atleast 50% of MSV's achievements in Carnatic. You didnt refute it.So, I take it as assent. SO, MSV gets 80 and Raja gets 40.
  
  I am sure you'll be objective enough to accept Raja is atleast 75% as good as MSV in melodies (hence 80 to MSV and 60 to Raja) and atleast 266.66% better than MSV in music(hence 80 to Raja and 30 to MSV in this dept.) .
  (Now you know why I gave myself 90 in Maths:))
  
  SO, adding up , who is the topper? Raja, ofcourse.:)
  I know its not as simple as that. But this is what I meant by parameters.
  
  The fact that Raja had the structure of songs (Pallavi, charanam etc) already present is irrelevant..I have already refuted this with the Thyagaraja Swamigal example(Refer my earlier post for that).
  For example, Sir.C.V.Raman's Physics teacher in 8th standards taught him the basics of physics. Does that make him a better scientist than C.V.Raman? C'mon, this can not be quoted as a reason for greatness! Srikanth, your point about MSV showing the path for Raja, therefore, is irrelevant, IMO. If you want to disagree with this, break my argument by breaking my C.V. Raman analogy. Only then I will acceept your argument about MSV's guiding Raja.
  
  ABOUT THOS E 'DIFFERENT songs
  
  1. Antha naal gnabagam: What is differnt about it musically? Dialogues in between songs.. that is a director's imagination..MD cant be held as the creative originator of this idea!
  
  2. Sippi Irukkuthu: Swaram-song. Again, kudos to Director and Kannadasan. What is MUSICALLY different about it?
  
  3. Kadavul amaithu: MIMICRY! Oh! Srikanth..MSV can certainlybe quoted for beter innovations..than introducing mimicry!
  
  4. Junior: Again , ventriloquism! Now, shall I praise ARR AS great because he introduced "KATHALS " and "KADHARALS" in between songs?
  
  5. Ponal Pogattum..: Only 3 instruments? Arent there CRS's scores using only Tabla and veenai. (Only 2 instruments!). Didnt Raja's "Rajadhi Raja" have only percussion ? Finally, didnt mahesh score a song without *ANY* instruments at all?:)
  (Better reasons, please, srikanth:)).
  (BTW, I know more about MSV's scores than I talk about here ...it is just that I have no time to talk about those, what with all my time spent in talking Raja!)
  
  See? All your songs refuted!
  New reasons, please, pending which...."IR is the best"!!!
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Thu Feb 4 13:30:18 EST 1999
  
  raj, i didn't post for a while because all the salient points that i wanted to say has been said..
  1.it is easy to question, why didn't he do it, why didn't he learn it and so on.. this argument is inherently false as one can never come to grapple with it.. there have been several things that IR has never even tried or attempted. does that mean if someone does it in future, he can be said to be better than IR.. give the oldies their due.. i feel that MSV has done enough justice at his time, by his tunes. a look at PPP will be revealing..
  2.i still stick to my point about not taking BGM into account. srikanth has been vocal about MSV's abilities in this regard, but i am NOT defending MSV at any point of time. my argument is not about MSV vs IR, but about all the people, right from papanasam sivan, G.Ramanathan to KVM&MSV. also, one cannot belittle the fact that film making has evolved over the years, and cannot say that the circumstances are the same..
  3. about IR's use of WCM, sure.. but creativity need not be measured through variety, both are different. also, in a lighter vein, a deva will get credit for using all the types of music in the world:-))
  4.i will never decry IR's achievements by using statements like GA was the one who did things for IR.. i can't even imagine it:-))
  5.if a static view of the importance of music is proposed, i would term that as a tunnel vision.. raj, may be we can chat about customizability of music over a cup of tea (or ur narasus coffee:-)))
  6.so, what else decides who is the best?? as i said earlier, the field and time period is so vast that there are no parameters to judge by. i also said earlier that the closest one will be the tune of the songs.
  7. from 6, it will follow that if we were discussing about whether IR is the best in TFM in say the past 20 years, u can be sure that i will pitch in to say that he is the best. but not over a period ranging from haridas to hariharan..
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Thu Feb 4 13:35:23 EST 1999
  
  raj, didn't see ur posting before i posted mine..
  interesting maths work..
  but, the catch is that u say, "Now, if you and I attended school together , suppose I got "..
  now, now, u wouldn't compare if srikanth went to school in the 60s and u in the 90s right? [ haven't we all heard the cliched statement "naan andha kaalathu B.A vaakkum:-))) ]
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Feb 4 13:55:21 EST 1999
  
  1. I have said this before. I am a bit tired that I am forced to repeat .but I'll do it;
  
  I didnt blindly say "X did this ..Y didnt do this". The parameter called BGM was there in FM , in general, during MSV's time. MSV's peers iN TFM didnt do it. MSV ALSO didnt do it. Now, if we claim MSV to be good, then we can excuse that aberration . But not if we want to evaluate him in terms of ALL TIME GREAT(believe me, such comparisons come up, whether one likes it or not...(again, this phrase is lifted from RajaG's post somewhere.. I fear someone might soon call me TFM's DeVA:))). The fact that IR didnt merely do what his peers(including the MSV of 70's) do. That is a hallmark of greatness.
  
  As for you rquestion that "If in future someone does somethign Raja has not done " will I accept that person as great?
  My answer is "YES!If you prove that that something has been attempted by Raja's peers in HFM or any other TFM"..! I agree with you when you say one cannot do everything that may be done in the future. But certainly if one were great, one can do what is being done by others in ONE'S TIME. This MSV failed to do with respect to BGM, whatever srikanth says about MSV's BGM..they werent as great as Raja's in matching the mood..I have seen MANY MSv movies (that too major KB movies and otehr major movies)...His BGM wasnt simply half-as-good as Raja in EVOKING THE EMOTION of the movie. Thats the important thing about BGM, not use of Violins and Orchestration. Either one accepts this OR state in plain terms that "IR was not as good as MSV in matching emotions on the screen with his BGM". CAN ANYONE STATE THIS?
  
  2.Creativity need not be measured in variety..all the same, IR didnt merely touch these various forms , let alone flick like Deva. He EXCELLED in each form. He CREATED newly in different forms (can u deny that?), fused styles and also within a given form(carnatic or WC) he certainly showed creativity to evolve new things ..this has been discussed umpteen times . So, dismissing his variety as just for name's sake is unfair. He EXCELLED in various forms. Hence he is great is my asssertion. Not just "He touched varous forms.hence he is great"
  
  That answers all your points except Static and Dynamic views, customizability etc. But that is irrelevant to this thread. Maybe, we can discuss this over a cup of Leo(Narasu's is not my favourite..and dont remind me of filter coffee..I hardly get any in Hyderabad...and Srinath ,tooo, has been absconding:)).
  
  So, your dismissal of VARIETY and BGM as factors doesnt hold. Hence your (6) is not valid. Hence, Raja is best:)
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Thu Feb 4 14:08:04 EST 1999
  
  BB: caught me there:)
  Still, the analogy wasnt completely mirroring the situation here. Just to illustrate(Note my "I know it isn't as simple as that...")... :)
  
  Just to illustrate the IMPORTANCE of summing up various parameters and performance in those parameters. It was because srikanth was saying :
  "MSV is good in factor A(showing path) ..hence he is best". I wanted to show him the importance of adding up various factors:)
  (Kuppura vizhunthaalum...?:))
  
  

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