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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 09:46:05 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth!
  I didnt see your latest post before posting my latest. Please dont stop posting. You are the only one who is arguing about MSV's superiority to Raja! Others have thrown in the towel in the beginning itself! If you dont post who will I 'fight' with?!
  
  Srikanth, about both your points
  1. MSV has touched more raagas.
  REPLY: I have conceded this point. My point is even conceding this ,Raja can be considered to have accomplished atleast 50% of MSV's achievements with RAAGAS and Carnatic...will you agree? But MSV has not achieved even 25 % of Raja's achievements iN WCM. Wont you agree?
  Why didnt MSV try to learn WCM, whereas Raja who was initially trained only in WC and FOLK later took pains to learn carnatic also and after learning it , mastered it to the extent that he could perform some great innovations? Now, if MSV was as great as Raja, he should have learnt and proved his worth in WCM . Maybe, he had the potential. But he didnt perform . I cannot accept
  "Has potential but didnt make effort. If he had made effort , he would have been succesful" as an excuse!
  
  2. Ga's proxy.
  My point is : Did any one of Raja's great BGM(Mouna Raagam, NK, UP,...) scored by GA. Only then will this issue matter in deciding "WHETHER RAJA IS NOT THE GREATEST"!
  
  BTW, I have no formal training in either WCM or CARNATIC. When I quoted percentages above, it was based on the various posts in various threads in TFM-DF and the "CLASSICAL ILAYARAAJA" series. I think I can safely depend on the veracity of these !
  
  Srikanth, if like some others, you have formed an opinion that I know something about music based on my posts in the DF, I must disappoint you ..I cant even differentiate between Guitar sound and Sitar sound! I am an absolute zero as far as music goes!
  But, I can certainly talk FM. My email is
  srinir@mailcity.com.
  Lastly, srikanth, I dont mean to hurt anyone . I have taken the liberty of addressing you and others directly in various posts..but thats because of the informal atmosphere of the DF. If I sound brusque or inflamatory anywhere, I apologise.
  
  OTHERS: Once again, I plead sincerely that
  In the future, let's try to decide:
  1. Whether BGM is a criterion.
  2. Whether Raja's interludes digress..IMO, this line is also not worth exploring because unless you come up with atleast 50 such instances, it is futile to argue that a major share of Raja's interludes digress.
  If 1 is proved correct and 2 is proved wrong, would I be wrong in concluding that .."..."(You know what goes inside these quotes.d I have to repeat?
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 10:10:33 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth, thats a fresh perspective. I can agree with that..Raja's recording sucks. I can also relate this to "Raja didnt know about recording...likewise, MSV didnt know about re-recording!".
  Of all the points that have been raised about "Raja is not great" so far in this thread, this is the toughest for me to refute!
  (hey!Just now I was telling that if Srikanth really applies his mind, then we will have a difficult time countering his arguments...and I get immediate proof! Can someone revive the "IR is greatest lyricist thread, please(So that srikanth's attention will be diverted and he cannot come up with such compelling arguments!:))
  
  Still i wont give up.
  Srikanth , I feel recording is a technical issue... it is great if A MD is good in this asperct also. But does good recording enhance the quality of a movie (cinematically considering), as much as good BGM does? No.EXAMPLE: Shankar movies!!
  For example, Pather Panchali's recording , photography are all miserable even according to Ray. But it still was a quality movie, alltime indian classic!
  
  Srikanth, I also argue that "BGM was KNOWN during MSV's period, atleast in nearby HFM and Bengali FM." He didnt learn , thats all.
  But if you consider "RECORDING QUALITY", which Indian movie scene had it in Raja's peak? Where is he have supposed to learn it from.
  MSV had the resources to do good BGM. The same violins, flutes that Raja uses in his BGM were surely available in the 60's? (Correct me if I am wrong and Violins were introduced to TN only in the 80's..:)). My point is not "MSV was not good in BGM". Probably, he was. But not as good as Raja.
  When RAJA came in 1976, he had the same resources as MSV had in 1952. If you say RR was complimentary to movie in MSV's period, it was certainly the same situation in 1976,77,78,79. Raja changed it.Raja introduced BGM as a concept, Where did he learn it from?Probably, Hollywood movies. Perhaps, more likely, Salilda's and SDB's Hindi movies. Do you mean to say MSV must have been unaware of Hollywood and HFM during his time? Certainly not! So, MSV had both
  1. Hardware... :violins, flutes
  2. Software...the concept of BGM itself: this was available in HFM and Hollywood movies. I must observe, the only source for seeing Hollywood movies in the 60's and 70's was the cinema theatre. So, RAJA had the same resources as MSV.But ARR has better resources (Satellite TV to give exposure to good tunes world-wide, FM radio, COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY to improve recording...etc. Raja certainly didnt have these resources.Not just Raja, no peer of Raja in HFM, BengaliFM , TELUGU FM etc . had these resources. Nor did any peer of Raja excel him in RECORDING. But there have been peers of MSV-SDB, SALILDA AND SATYAJIT RAY- who have excelled him in BGM!)
  
  The claim that "MSV didnt have resources..", therefore, doesnt hold. So, pending any new reason/argument that you come up with, my claim that " YOU-KNOW-WHAT-GOES-HERE" stands vindicated!!
  
  Having said that, I must appeal to my fellow IR-fans to come up with something outrageous in the "IR as lyricist thread" so that Srikanth spends his time refuting that and does not come up with another dificult argument! :)
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 10:23:59 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth! Just an aside. Your English is not bad certainly. I am not patronising, BTW. I feel odd and uncomfortable, that you should be getting this feeling about your English being bad. C'mon, you express yourself very well. Just see the postings of SPM, if you want to know what really is poor English!
  (Not that I am ridiculing SPM for that...I have always held that GOOD ENGLISH(OR french!)should never be a criterion for posting here.)
  
  As for my supposedly good English, I must observe it pales to insignificance before your musical talent. C'mon, I cant create anything new...whereas you can create new tunes and melodies! If you are like IR, I am like ARR:))
  (Here I go again..why can't I keep off taking potshots at ARR?) :)
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.201) on: Wed Feb 3 12:15:14 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  
  In terms of technology available to Raja vs. MSV,
  
  a) When MSV was in his prime 'mono' was the only sound effect. Raja entered simultaneously with he Stereo world.
  b) In terms of percussion MSV did not have congas and mainly used bongos, which do not have the base drum at all. Further, bass guitar was also not widely used (nor by SDB, Madanmohan, Salilda etc...). The addition of bass gives a 'fullness' to the music which is a standard we should not use to compare old melodies with new.
  c) I hope you have heard 'engEy nimmadhi' from pudhiya paravai. Use of violins - I rest my case.
  
  If you are talking about imagination and composing skills within the 'then' available instruments, AS WELL AS the contemporary thinking of the period during which the composer is operating, MSV has demonstrated immensely his skills. On a different point, despite all the techno instruments and recording facilities available Raja's percussion sounds are very ordinary. The clever way in which ARR introduced Mridangam in NenjinilEy is very imaginative and praiseworthy. So what if it is a standard 4 beat cycle.
  
  In a different post you had mentioned about mogamuL. Srikanth, I don't know whether you agree with this but composing a raga based (semi-classical) song is much easier than crating a non-standard tune. This is because all the structure and standard 'phrases' are already provided to you.
  
  Once again I like to compare IR to IR. SollaayO vaai thirandhu was a Shanmugapriya based melody in moGamuL. Good tune, good melody but average composition. Poongatru pudhidhaanadhu from moondraam pirai (only the song) is based on sindhubhairavi. But the prelude and BGMs were outstanding (not standing out). Raja used guitar (prelude), violins,flute and tabla (for the charanam) exceptionally well. Raja has not done something to that level for quite some time.
  
  I know you wrote saying that this discussion (about current Raja vs. old Raja) belongs in a different thread. I was just feeling lazy. Sorry.
  
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 23:13:00 EST 1999
  
  Dear RajaG:
  I have clearly accepted MSV's competence in songs and melodies. I have no qualm s in accepting him as comparable to his peers in HFM etc. My point was about BGM. His peers like SDB did it. He didn't. If he was great, rather than just good, the fact that his peers in TFM didnt do BGM should not have prevented him from learning this art from his peers in nearby HFM. This was my point.
  
  Use of Violins in 'Enge Nimmadhi': Thanks for giving another point in my favour. He did it once. So, he had the potential to give good BGM. But he didn't. IR's peers and predecessors in TFM also didnt give great BGM .He did. To quote srikanth, albeit with a change, "IR didnt have the path..he made it" IR's peers and predecessors gave good melodies. IR easily surpassed his peers in melody and came quite close to predecessors in
  melody. PERIOD.
  
  2. IR 's recording in 80's <<<< ARR's recording quality. AGREED. MOST DEFINITELY.
  But the point here is we cannot say that any peer of IR at peak , either in TFM or HFM surpassed him in recording quality. So, "IR's recording vs ARR's recording" is not the same as "MSV's BGM vs IR's BGM".
  
  To compare old IR vs new IR here is unfair. It only gives "IR is not great " posters to chnage the track of the discussion. I had taken great pains to summarise the state of the discussions in this thread in my last post. My sincere wish is that we dont digress into technicalities. Once again I appeal earnestly to all of you to take this thread to a logical conclusion:
  I have , in my last few posts, summarised the arguments and counter-arguments for
  1. "Whether we can compare IR and Old masters"
  2."If so, is he the greatest".
  (Refer my posts on: Wed Feb 3 03:14:06 EST 1999 and Wed Feb 3 04:19:19 EST 1999 ).
  
  As of now, we have refuted every argument that has been raised against EVERY point against either of the two claims. I have summarised these arguments and counter-arguments also. As of now, the ball is in the court of "IR is not great" or "We cannot compare" posters.
  I have taken pains to ensure that EVERY SINGLE POINT raised by srikanth, karthi and others against "IR is the best" is answered . The logical course of this discussion should be to break my arguments. That is why it pained to see that your post once again diverts this thread to "Old IR vs New IR"!
  I think only if someone comes up with an argument that refute all these arguments we have made that this thread can progress. I must also observe that pending any new argument /reason , our claim that "IR is the best " stands proved.(Let me see if atleast this provokes someone to reply to our arguments rather than digressing :))
  
  SO, ONCE AGAIN I EARNESTLY APPEAL TO MY DEAR BRETHREN: Please stick to this topic. Please dont raise new and unconnected issues here. For once, let's take the discussion forward atleast.
  
  
  
• From: Suresh (@ bowerbird.qut.edu.au) on: Thu Feb 4 08:00:15 EST 1999
  
  Raj:
  We hereby award you the 1st "IR-Ratna" for your unwavering dedication and perseverance:) Way to go, buddy!
  
  

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