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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 04:19:19 EST 1999
  
  Now, to BB's argument. I just have to summarise, because BB has not reacted my latest response to him.
  "Comparisons cnnot be made." goes BB's line.
  I feel that we can compare, provided we identify the common factors. IMO, BGM is one such factor. IHO, it isn't . After all the exchanges , this argument , BB came up with things like :
  "Orchestrations were not in vogue during MKT's time.So he didnt do it. So, is he inferior to,say, ARR."
  "BGM was not in vogue during MSV'S time. So, he didnt attempt it. So, we cannot point out IR's talent in BGM as an advantge over MSV."
  My response was :"When Raja came into scene, BGM was still NOT in vogue. Still ,he caMe up with good BGM. MSV had 24 years to learn from nearby HFM(wherE SDB and Salilda werent neglecting BGM) , which he has been known to be familiar with. Just because none in TFM had the enterprise to bring this aspect to TFM, you cannot dismiss it as a parameter.
  
  Thats where the argument stands as far as "Why no comparisons can be made." stands. My plea is :
  Lets continue from here, instead of going back to
  1."How many raagas has IR touched?"
  2."How many movies have run only for IR?"
  3."GA's proxy for IR in BGM"...may I ask, how many of these were truly great BGM. Have we, the SUPPOSEDLY IRPC members , claimed anywhere credit to Raja a BGM score which was actually done by GA. I am tempted to ask srikanth a list of movies where this is supposed to have happened,but that doesnt matter to me, so I refrain. The point is Raja has numerous great BGM scores to his credit.He is a pioneer IN TFM as far as this aspect is concerned and he has really done it full justice. Others who follow can only emulate him in this aspect, just like IR could only emulate MSV/TKR as far as melodies go. Try denying that!
  
  4.Unsubstantiated film-industry rumours.
  
  This is my sincere wish . It is only MO that avoiding these will help us progress with the correct line of argument and ultimately, arrive at a conclusion. I may be wrong, If so, I apologise.
  What say all?
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 04:30:07 EST 1999
  
  This is for Karthi.
  Much water has flown under the bridge, Karthi, since we had our last exchange . It seems to have swept away the logical course of our argument.Namely that IR's interludes digress. I had promised you that if you come up with examples of this concept,I'll try to justify those in light of their situation. IMO, I have utmost confidence I can, not because I think I am a good debater, but because the side I am on ,namely Raja-defence , is too strong. It is inconceivable that Raja's interludes digress without a corresponding digression of mood in the movie. HEnce my confidence.
  So, in the future, let's try to decide:
  1. Whether BGM is a criterion.
  2. Whether Raja's interludes digress..IMO, this line is also not worth exploring because unless you come up with atleast 50 such instances, it is futile to argue that a major share of Raja's interludes digress.
  3. Also, you havent explained what you mean "Java-like", "reusable" interludes.
  
  Just to put things in perspective!
  I forgot to add another direction to avoid in my last post:
  5. Personal qualities of MD's..ego, etc.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 08:18:56 EST 1999
  
  TYPO!
  In my posting on Feb 3 02:47:20 EST :
  
  Read
  "On top of it, you claim My love for Srikanth is blind"
  as
  "On top of it, you claim My love for Ilayaraaja is blind" !!!
  
  Not that my love for srikanth is blind :)
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 08:30:36 EST 1999
  
  SOME dhkjskjl stuff:
  
  Srinath:
  "Thanks for reminding others of the single most important factor of my challenge - "...take away from IR's achievements..." ! Ironically, Srikanth is the only one arguing by my rules ! "
  
  Do you mean to say Srikanth is taking away from IR's achievements ?
  :)
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 08:36:16 EST 1999
  
  "BTW, what do the HCIRF haters want to do about
  HCMSVRF's? "
  Karthik: There is only one HC-MSV-F here.Atleast only one VOCAL HC-MSV-F. You know who it is. He is capable of taking on all of us HCIRF's single-handedly if he stops reacting emotionally to every complimentary post on Raja . Luckily for us, he is not doing that! SO, I must observe, we must keep him busy by writing outrageous stuff like "IR, the lyricist" , so that he doesnt apply his mind too much in this thread :)
  (The above is strictly dhjksfl stuff..NOM,please!)
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-19.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Feb 3 09:24:36 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  I thought I should not post, Still
  
  Touching Ragas,
  Without any doubt MSV has touched more, and also his handling of Ragas are far superior than Raja.
  
  Eg:Raja's indolem had been always classical based (light carnatic), MSV has used this indolem in Nabauru singari in nianithale inikum, totaly a different flavor
  
  Taking Abogi, Raja's abogis are once again light classical, Msv handles it quite differently in Vanakam palamurai sonnen in (ironically) Avan oru Saritharam.
  
  Raj:
  Many chota movies whos name I cannot remember (one or two mouli movies), Raja let GA do the rerecording, Raj can give your email I will send my phone numer or you send yours,
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Proud-fan-of-raja:you-know-who! (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 09:26:11 EST 1999
  
  "as far as ur dalen mehndi reference goes, please read my posting again.. i was just pointing out to what might happen in the future, and if u find that outrageous, pity u..."
  
  
  BB! :
  Well, not many pity me..so, should I thank you ?:)
  On a serious note, the question is not what might happen in the future. Maybe some new parameters will emerge. But, do you think "customising" is a parameter that can be considered? Maybe, in the future, even "Cut andpaste" might be a factor. But let's not consider that. What are your parameters?
  My parameters for *good music* are:
  1.Melody
  2. Orch.
  3.BGM
  4. Matching the mood of the movie
  
  These can be considered because they , by themselves , define Film music. Actually, (4) should be the only consideration. But (1) (2) and(3) come into consideration in the indian context. "customizing" etc. dont better the quality of a movie. What is a good movie anyway? Why is Mahendran's Udhiri pookkal considered a great movie? Some others hold "Edhir Neechal" as a great movie. Because , for its genre, it stood as a milestone. Likewise, it is possible to identify factors which better the quality of a movie
  
  Likewise, the contribution of MUSIC to a movie can be evaluated. We can compare MD X and MD y on their overall contribution to the quality of a movie. In this case, I can quote instances of
  1.IR's BGM complimenting the greatness of the movie. EXAMPLE: Mahendran movies
  
  2. IR's music elevating ordinary movies to good status. EXAMPLE: Manirathnam movies.
  
  3.IR's music elevating rotten movies to okay-movies status, and also making them hit.
  EXAMPLE: Ramarajan movies.
  
  In MSV's case(It seems he is the greatest pre-IR MD...going by the way everyone who wants to debunk the theory "IR is greatest.." theory quote his work. To me, that itself negates the "Why we cant compare .." theory!) he has but one USV for good BGM .
  (BB: let me point out one thing here. You said that "BGM was not in vogue in TFM during MSV's time. So, he didn't concentrate on that." . But srikanth clearly quotes ONE movie of MSV that has decent BGM. That means MSV knew about BGM....only, he could produce it only for one movie..maybe 10 more! And srikanth knows more about MSV than any of us in this forum! So, your theory that "MSV didn t know about BGM ..hence we cannot use BGM as a comparison of IR and MSV " stands negated. Hence we can use BGM as a comparison... and you have already accepted that if BGM can be considered IR is the best . Hence I stand vindicated once again..IR is, indeed the greatest...!
  
  Ofcourse, if you disagree with Srikanth and say USV had lousy BGM(atleast, not comparable with IR..because if so, it will prove MSV knew about BGM!), then the above argument doesnt hold. But if you say that , I can point out to srikanth :"Even an 'bjective' poster like BB agrees USV's BGM was not good". And srikanth has no objections to using BGM as a parameter. So, if you say USV had lousy BGM , then I would have proved my assertion that "IR is the greatest.." to srikanth !
  So, either You or srikanth have to concede the validity of my claim !!!! Now, which one of you is going to do it??:))
  
  But how does "customizing a song to a particular listener's taste" contribute to the quality of a movie? It really beats me! What do you mean by customization, anyway? Something like "Interactive applets"?.
  
  Music trends might change. But the parameters that define good music will remain Melody and BGM. Even ORCHESTRATIon might not matter. And, unless and until someone excels Raja in all these aspects in the future, "RAJA SHALL REMAIN THE GREATEST MD IN TFM EVER...". All ya Raja-bashers hope that some such person will emerge in the future. I am smug with confidence that even if I live to see the 23rd century, such a star wont appear in the TFM horizon. Because, we had one Bharathiyar in the 19th century. There has not been another like him till now..and I dont think, there will be in another century.
  We had one Ramanujan in the 20th century. There has not been another like him till now..and I dont think, there will be in another century.
  We have one Ilayaraaja in the 20th/21st centuries . There has not been another like him till now..and I dont think, there will be in another century.
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-19.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Feb 3 09:27:14 EST 1999
  
  BTW:
  Reading all your postings here, enchances my written English capabilities which I often rue for not able to write good language.
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-19.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Feb 3 09:32:30 EST 1999
  
  USV is just an example there are many more, MSV's BGM was not quite vast like Raja's arrangement
  it is similar to ARR recording and Raja's recording which sucks..Why Raja did not record properly inspite of all his equipments, because the technology at time did not know there is something called balancing or sound engineering, like wise during MSV period RR (BGM) was suppliment to movie, thats what I metioned earlier "for the given period (i used time my poor english) and resources MSV did great.
  
  Srikanth
  
  

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