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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: SM (@ 208.236.83.26) on: Tue Feb 2 16:40:34 EST 1999
  
  
  Shankar,
  
  Film roll kooda thevai illai!!! Raja mattum irundhal podhum. ARR padangalukku kodukkura publicity maadhiri pannal, cassette saleslayae producer profit paarkalaam!!!
  
  Karthi,
  
  I accept MSV-TKR melodies are great. Even in my earlier posting, I had given that the no. of memorable songs that MSV-TKR had given are more than IR's songs. There may be various reasons for that. Personally, I am more bothered about lyrical content in a song also. That is also more important for the song like the rhythm and the tune and the beat. Most of the MSV-TKR songs were rich in lyrical content (Courtesy : Kannadhasan). IR didn't work with Kannadhasan for more songs because of the latter's death. But still, those songs are gems like 'kannae kalaimaanae'. Agreed, he had Vairamuthu (for a brief period) and Vaali. But, I like Kannadhasan's lyrics more. Maybe, that is also one of the reason why I feel MSV-TKR have given more everlasting melodies than IR. But, does a number of everlasting songs alone make a MD the greatest? Like Srikanth said, it is the tune, the lyrics and then the BGM. IR is very close to MSV-TKR in giving no. of everlasting melodies (BTW, those numbers were random. I just wanted to emphazise that those were very close numbers). But, in every other aspect of composing music, he excels, followed by MSV-TKR. That is why, I call IR as the best MD India has ever produced. Agreed that MSV-TKR were great but I feel Raja is the best if we take together all aspects of composing music for a film.
  
  To sum it up,
  
  "yaar sonnadhu mannaraatchi mudindhu vittadhu endru
  isai ulagai indrum oru Raaja dhaan aandu kondirukkiraar. iniyum aaLvar
  andha Raja engaL ILayaraja"
  
  
• From: Suresh (@ bowerbird.qut.edu.au) on: Wed Feb 3 01:35:46 EST 1999
  
  Srikkanth:
  
  Even by your own twisted standards of (il)logic, we still won't be provoked into become MSV-bashers just like you're so capable of switching those IR-bash switches on and off as you please. Just to show you that we "IR-besh"ers are broad-minded & have some objectivity, you see :)
  
  Neenga solratha paatha, looks like IR's major fault was that he was born after MSV for you harp ceaselessly on the "paths" that MSV never had. It's pointless to remind again that IR also had to cross as much, if not more, hurdles that MSV surpassed.
  
  I'm so happy that you concede that it's only RECENTLY that you find IR's BGM scores predictable. This after he's done 800-odd movies. Can we name one contemporary or all-time composer, Indian or international, who comes close to IR in terms of quality spread over such a wide timespan?
  Anyone who's tackled the sheer diversity of languages, styles and genres of film-music like IR has?
  
  And, about GA's work in some BGM's it doesn't really matter unless GA produced such a stupendous BGM score of his own like Raajaparvai or Mouna Ragam... He might have worked on some films when IR was occupied; I think it was just fair that he did something for IR after all that he gained from just being IR's brother. It's just akin to Kaarthik Raja doing some songs for IR; it's all in the family, and until you come up with some proof that GA has done many scores that IR's been widely acclaimed for, it doesn't take away from IR's intrinsic quality.
  
  Before I make you go nuts any further..
  Cheers:)
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 02:00:57 EST 1999
  
  One point.Just one point.
  
  Carnatic music existed even before Thyagaraja swamigal.He had guide lines to follow. A music system existed within which he innovated, created and on occasions, extended its frontiers. Today, if you are asked to name the GREATEST CARNATIC MUSICIAN ever, will you choose Thyagaraja Swamigal or his predecesors, who were the ones who constructed the "Suvar"-the carnatic music form- or swamigal, who made the most famous chitthiram in this suvar and even reconstructed it.
  
  So, your logic that IR followed the rules that MSV created..hence he is infereior to MSV is not , infact, LOGIC!(Paradox?)
  
  Srikanth, I am glad you have the tenacity to state your preference, atleast. You didnt resort to "I admire Raja.He is a genius.But...". I am also glad that finally, we have made you accept that ,for all your credentials as musician, your preference is for the MSV style of music. That is, you are prejudiced towards it. Hence your antipathy to accepting IR as great. I'll come to ypur other points soon.Few moments please...
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 02:47:20 EST 1999
  
  SRIKANTH: Here's a point-by-point rebuttal.
  
  1."Mere BGM is not music. As someone mentioned here no one will say BGM was good, tune is important to a song. then the lyrics then comes bgm."
  
  REPLY:
  AGREED. My claim was: IR matched MSV and others in tune and surpassed him in BGM. As for lyrics, what can IR do if he doesnt have a kannadasan. Surely, you dont expect himself to be keats-reincarnate,too.
  
  2.Also you cannot discount MSV did not do BGM at all. Simply you have not heard it. Have you heard the organ pience in Engeym Epodhum - Nenaithale inikum, many still struggle to play the piece.
  REPLY:
  AGREED.I am not very familiar with such ISOLATED pieces of MSV. But then ,why? Because, he has not done sufficiently good BGM to attract my attention to even obscure movies of his. Raja has done that. Besides, I told this before:Lets not trade songs, pieces, movies etc. I am saying this sincerely for your good-If we start discussing Raja's BGM, there will be no end to it..we have a wide repertoire of good BGM by Raja to choose from. Look at the BGM thread. Whse BGM is discussed mostly there? Who prevented MSV fans from discussing "GREAT BGM by MSV" in that thread(if such a thing exists!:)). C'mon, Srikanth, you can do better than this type of argument. Thirdly, so what if a piece is difficult to play..essays have been written on how Raja's Guitar piece in Ilaya Nila is a much-feared oneto play by Music Troupes.
  
  My sincere plea: Please avoid this track of discussion . It distracts everyone. This thread is "Why IR is not best". Please come up with valid reasons why he is not. Say "Raja was not GOOD in this aspect of music." Lets see whether you can do that.
  
  3.Raja had all sorts of reference for him to Tamil film music when he came in, MSV was one of his reference.
  MSV did not have such thing as reference, he was the person who laid the foundation for music in TFM.
  I have replied to this inmy previous post.
  
  4.Secondly Raja is a trained WC musician, so he as learnt the art thru a school, MSV did not learn WC classical, he knows only bits and pieces. He was well versed in Indian Classical music.
  simply "Padikaadha Medhai".
  REPLY:
  This is annoying. C'mon, what motivated that man who grew up in an OBSCURE VILLAGE in REMOTE TN to learn WESTERN CLASSICAL. Whereas, MSV, who spent most of his youth in MUSIC CIRCLES in MADRAS didn't.
  Padikkatha medhais deserve appreciation , okay. But after attaining the foothold in music industry your medhai should have attempted to learn different forms. Was Raja trained in CARNATIC? Didnt he attempt and master this form after he established himself? Can I say Raja is a padikkatha medhai in CARNATIC? Following your logic , I can. In that case, Raja's achiebemnts in Raagas, which you have been touting as infereior to MSV's(Something about complex raaga s for simple tunes etc), becomes substantially higher than you give him credit to him for. But MSV's achievements iN WCM pale before Raja's in Carnatic, WONT YOU AGREE? So, following your own convoluted logic, this proves Raja is the greater musician because without learning carnatic formally, he was able to achieve atleast 50% of what MSV achievedin carnatic. But MSV didnt achieve 25% of Raja's accomplishments in WCM.
  QED, srikanth. You have scored a self-goal against yourself!!
  
  But let that pass. Let me not take resort to such convoluted logic to prove Raja is great.
  I'll prove it by following PURE,PROPER, LOGIC. Srikanth, please dont resort to such CONVOLUTED logic to prasie your idol . May I ask who is blind, now? Till date, Have I ever illogically praised Raja? All my claims, I have substantiated with proper proof. Whereas, you come up with such arguments as this. On top of it, You say my love for IR is blind. NO, dear, it isn't. I have certainly profeessed my love for IR, and inplain terms at that, a 100 times here, before. I'll do it a million time sif necesary. But each time, I'll give you a proper logical explanation why I think so. Whereas you have been playing hide-and-seek-Now, you bash IR for the sake of his fans.Now, you praise him .Now, again you bash him. I t takes all of two years for you to come up with a clear -cut "MSV is the best". May I ask you why didnt you state this before.Were you not sure? On top of it, you claim My love for Srikanth is blind?No, sir,. If you want to reiterate that Iam blind in my love for Raja, please quote any statement of mine about him that is unsubstantiated. I am no SPMahendran, sir!:)
  (Okay, I am short-sighted..-5.5..but certainly not blind!):)
  
  5 Raja also holds a about 50%-60% share in corrupting the standard of lyrics. He forced people to hear non-sense.
  This has no bearing onIR, the musician. I dont want to discuss IR, the human-being. But before you misinterpret that as an approval of your evaluation of him as an arrogant, know-all, let me state that I dont think so.I have utmost respect for IR, the person, too, for his no-nonsense attitude, commitment to his music , rather than persons, contempt for banality and mediocrity..But lets not discuss that here.
  
  6.Raja being the greatest Musician of TFM is just an illusion. It is just like ARR being on the top and many claiming he is best ever.
  
  No, sir. Noway. How many times SHOULD we say this. Please come up with "Why IR is not great?".Please refute our specific statements about "Why IR is the greatest?". Please lets not have plain emotional, and unsupported statements as the above one.LOGIC, PLEASE,PLEASE!! I am tired of rebutting such emotional rather than logical arguments.
  
  7.We have to also take note of his big EGo, began to illtreat directors. I consider this as a big crime. A movie can become a hit without a MD but not without a D. He plays a vital role.
  Raja has misused his status many times.
  NO bearing on Raja, the musician.Please close the chapter on Raja's ego. Discuss Raja, the musician.
  
  8.Given the time and resources, I am sure MSV is the best MD tamil film music ever produced.
  
  JOKE? No, srikanth was just being emotional. How much more time ddoes he need. It's 47 years, sir, since he came into this industry.
  
  9.Raj:Raja is getting more attention then he deserves. As you have mentioned he is not treated shabbily. We honoured him even without listening 1 bar of his symphony. What you say (rather cry) is out of your big love (I call it blind love) for Raja music.
  I havent praised him for his symphony till now.Nor will I without hearing it. Besides, what do I know of the symphony form to comment on Raja? Nothing. So, I dare not comment on that. If you have praised him in the past for his symphony ...well, well, do I have to continue this sentence?:)(NOM, srikanth..but someone as BIG as you in this forum must be more logical RATHER than emotional, IMO.NOM, please..:))
  
  Lastly, do you still believe my love for Raja and his music is blind? Then , pray, let's hear why you think so. Maybe, I have been emotional and slipped somewhere..should be interesting to know.
  Sorry IF I hurt anyone .I never meant to.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 3 03:14:06 EST 1999
  
  I hope all of you'll excuse me if I try to put this thread in perspective:
  This thread was supposed to discuss:Why IR is not best.
  Two arguments croppped up:
  1. Melodies are the sole criterion. Hence, RAJA pales before MSV/TKR. When we pointed out that this cannot be so and a musician's whole output including BGM, and that even assuming Raja lagged behind MSV in melodies, that gap was small sufficiently outdone by the LEAD he establishes in BGM and otehr aspects. Till now, the effort from the IR-is-not-great posters has ben to deny BGM its place as a paremater itself. Nobody has come up and said "Raja lacks a substantial number of melodies. Hewnce he is inferior." I reitereate my challenge that anyone come up and say the above statement in as many words. Only then can the discussions move. Right now they are static. We have rested our case why Raja is the best. Nobody is arguing against that logically. Only emotional outbursts so far . Karthi, where are you? We have rested our argument as to why BGM is also a criterrion. If you wish so, please do deny it without blank statements. I mean, like "People watch movies only for songs, not BGM". So what?
  BGM is not supposed to be the prime attraction. It complements a movie.OTOH, without BGM, a movie is not complete. SO, IMO, This argument that people dont watch a movie for BGM doesnt justify your non-inclusion of BGM as a criterion for evaluation of MD.
  
  So, my sincere suggestion is that we stop reacting to emotional outbursts and resort to a more logical discussion. Atleast, that way, we would be moving in our discussions. IMO, lets not bring in criteria such as cassette sales, success of movie, personal traits etc.
  
  2. BB's argument:I'll come to it soon. Going for lunch!!
  
  
  
  
  
  

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