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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-40.il.us.ibm.net) on: Tue Feb 2 09:12:28 EST 1999
  
  Mere BGM is not music. As someone mentioned here no one will say BGM was good, tune is important to a song. then the lyrics then comes bgm.
  
  Also you cannot discount MSV did not do BGM at all. Simply you have not heard it. Have you heard the organ pience in Engeym Epodhum - Nenaithale inikum, many still struggle to play the piece.
  
  Raja had all sorts of reference for him to Tamil film music when he came in, MSV was one of his reference.
  MSV did not have such thing as reference, he was the person who laid the foundation for music in TFM.
  
  Secondly Raja is a trained WC musician, so he as learnt the art thru a school, MSV did not learn WC classical, he knows only bits and pieces. He was well versed in Indian Classical music.
  simply "Padikaadha Medhai".
  
  Raja also holds a about 50%-60% share in corrupting the standard of lyrics. He forced people to hear non-sense.
  
  Raja being the greatest Musician of TFM is just an illusion. It is just like ARR being on the top and many claiming he is best ever.
  
  We have to also take note of his big EGo, began to illtreat directors. I consider this as a big crime. A movie can become a hit without a MD but not without a D. He plays a vital role.
  Raja has misused his status many times.
  
  Given the time and resources, I am sure MSV is the best MD tamil film music ever produced.
  
  Raj:Raja is getting more attention then he deserves. As you have mentioned he is not treated shabbily. We honoured him even without listening 1 bar of his symphony. What you say (rather cry) is out of your big love (I call it blind love) for Raja music.
  
  
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Feb 2 10:08:39 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  Just wanted to clarify the resources issue.I am not meddling into your views on MSV but just wanted to clairfy what resources MSV lacked or lets put it this way,what extra resources IR had?
  sorry for the digression guys.
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Tue Feb 2 10:13:53 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth:
  
  So what if MSV did not learn WCM. I absolutely dont care about what MD's learnt or did not learn. Again, I dont care if MD's write notes or play songs out. It is the output that matters.
  
  Again, is'nt it true that Raja *wiped* MSV out? True MSV might have fought back, but then what matters is that he did not succeed, right? Raja gave up easily ---- Joke thaane adikkereenga? During all these years, when nobody else believed in Raja, only one person was sure he would come back. RAJA HIMSELF.
  
  
  MSV is a big technology hater. He made silly comments like "It is not Rahman who scores music ... it is his computer". Raja, inspite of all the rivalry between him and Rahman, never ever detested or derided the use of technology. He has been adapting himself only too well.
  
  What do you mean TKR's contribution was not much? When I see a movie with Viswanathan-Ramamoorthy, then I believe the MD's are both these people. You are biased, sir. Which is why when you see a movie with Viswanathan-Illayaraja, or V-R; you immediately claim that MSV did all the work, and the others just hogged the limelight.
  
  Now dont give me bull**** about Gangai Amaran completing Raja's movies. You also claimed elsewhere that GA scored BGM for Raja's movies, right? Do you have any proof for this, except industry gossip. In the same vein, I can tell you that Kannadasan scored the music for all of MSV's movies, and he used MSV as a ghost. Proof : Absolutely nothing. I believe what is in the title. And I *will not* accept anything that you say, unless it is documented somewhere. So for heavens sake, stop taking shelter in rumours.
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Tue Feb 2 10:20:13 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth:
  
  One more thing, "Given time and resources" ....What does that mean. MSV was there at the top for a looong looong time, without any competition at all. Nothing stopped him from experimenting except his own limitations... nothing stopped him from coming out of shackles imposed by lyrics, and scoring something refreshingly different.
  
  Raja causing deterioration in lyrics is another matter as is his ego. We are discussing their merits as a MD. Not as a person.
  
  BGM is not music. Of course, what else could you expect from a blind MSV worshipper. Whatever MSV does well is music. If he cant do it well (except in isloated cases like USV), then it is not music. Maybe we should spell your definition of music as MSVic, just to avoid confusion with what other people call music
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Tue Feb 2 10:34:23 EST 1999
  
  Hi
  Yes I have proof, do you want me to fax it.
  I know many directors who had this complaint
  Shall we confenrence and talk to them.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Feb 2 10:46:25 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  I will like to have the fax.YOu can reach me at 610-432-4361 and we can teleconference with any person of your choice.Am interested to see what U have got .Also, if you still have the jazz chords of ARR ,I will be more than happy to look into it.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 210-235-25.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Feb 2 11:55:44 EST 1999
  
  Raj:
  Thanks for reminding others of the single most important factor of my challenge - "...take away from IR's achievements..." ! Ironically, Srikanth is the only one arguing by my rules !
  
  bb:
  "Extremely childish" is a term that is the anti-thesis of of what Srinath is ! "Childish" - maybe, "immature" - probably, "juvenile" - perhaps, but not "extremely childish" ;-))) ! Not for the reasons that you mentioned ! Why was I asking for MSV's WCM and fusion albums ? To reiterate the fact that MSV is an incomplete musician - because of lack of resources or racial prejudice or reservation system, or maybe even TN state quota, who knows ?!!!. Fact remains that IR did what MSV did and then some, and that makes IR a better MD than MSV. And that automatically makes IR the best MD in TFM ! Even if you were to ignore IR's greatest creations - his BGM, IR has significantly bettered MSV in orchestration, while lagging only slightly behind him in the melody department ! Or maybe you would like to take away the interludes as well, claiming that the songs beings and ends with the lyrics, as Karthi implied before ? Well in that case, you would be comparing Kannadhasan and IR !!!
  
  Srikanth:
  Just one point - when you talk of IR's arrogance, could it be the fact that IR refused to suck up to these directors and indulge in the phony relationships that prevail in the film industry ? Just like ARR refuses to praise IR, because he is being honest, could it be possible that I refused to do the same with KB, MR and co ?
  
  Another doubt (serious one this !). I read somewhere that IR and Mr had a fall-out over the BGM of Dalapathy. Is this true ? Does anyone know the details ? I thought the BGM of Dalapathy, interspersed with a pathetic "Dalapathy, yengal, dalapathy, nam Dalapathy.." chorous, was much below par ! I'd like to think that this chorous was a product of a sick mind like MR's than IR's ;-) Can anyone clarify ?
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 210-235-25.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Feb 2 12:00:01 EST 1999
  
  Heh Heh..I didn't refuse to do anything with KB, MR and co :) I was suggesting that maybe IR did !!! 'scuse the typo :-)
  
  Karthik:
  I have seen you severely criticise the HCIRFs, and yet find you arguing for IR here ! Strange ! Well, maybe not so strange :-)
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Tue Feb 2 12:11:31 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  >>A movie can become a hit without a MD but
  not without a D. He plays a vital role. <<
  
  Well, kOvai thambi thought the other way. He removed a director bcos he cudn't pen a story suiting the nine Gems offered by Raja.
  
  The director was "some" Ravi (new D was maNivaNNan) and the movie was "iLamai kAlangaL" which was HUGE success.
  
  The same KThami went for some other MD in his next movie and it flopped ."Some of my well wishers told me", says he," unakedhukku indha vEndAdha vElai, Raja vai oru 5 pAttu compose paNNa sollittu mohan kaila oru mike ai kuduthA padam success Ayidum ."
  
  I'm saying this famous quote of 80s for the n'th time.
  
  "oru pdam success Aradhukku film roll um IR um irundhA pOdhum" .I haven't seen any MD reaching that stage ,till date.
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Tue Feb 2 13:08:55 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth: The child in you is rearing its head again. You are going to fax me what? If a movie title says IR is its MD, then to
  me IR is its MD. (if it says Deva, then :-))). That is the ultimate proof. Sure, I'd like to teleconference with the
  directors....name a time, and I'll gladly give you my phone number. To all the others : Sorry for veering away from the topic.
  Srinath : you probably mixed me up with the numerous karthiks out there. BTW, what do the HCIRF haters want to do about
  HCMSVRF's?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Tue Feb 2 13:18:47 EST 1999
  
  Guys ,
  This is going nuts, makes me a total IR basher.
  
  As a musician I feel MSV has done more than IR. Raja had some clue or path to follow, MSV did not have that path
  he found his way and introduced many things. Though I talked about Raja's Ego etc, frankly it does not count.
  
  When I play a MSV tune I get amazed by the tune placement or the way it flows., which I have not seen in Raja's tune, at times Raja's BGMs makes me think a little, but off late it is very much predictable.
  To Conclude, time changes person like me who's been bought up hearing MSV then RAJA, I am not able feel the greatness in Raja's tune. My small tiny musical brain tells me MSV has done better than this,
  
  
  eg:Try playing the accordian piece in Pachai Keli muthucharam, very complicated piece. How did that man think that is my question. Pity is no one has explored a MSV number as we do with IR songs.
  Since there was no track recording, many of his scores go behind the main melody, I force my way to hear many hidden scores of MSV.
  
  The above does not bring down the talents of Raja, he is a great composer, but there were people before who has also done manythings, often goes unnoticed by others , this is my concern.
  
  
  Many have told MSV is tech basher, like we comment on ARR for canned music , mtv influence etc, MSV has every
  right to comment on ARR.
  
  Anand I will call you sometime, we will discuss, I will conference with some people here who have worked with Raja.
  Belive me I am not lying, Due to his tight schedule Raja permitted GA do many BGM score - it is the fact.
  
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Tue Feb 2 16:02:15 EST 1999
  
  
  Srikanth : No offense at all, but your logic eludes me. Why do you bash IR, when you always claim that your target is the
  HCIRF? It is little like breaking idols because you had a feud with some devotee in the temple. And in the process, you are
  now in serious danger of being branded a non-objective poster. If you ask me, there is nothing wrong in someone being a
  HCIRF, just as there is nothing wrong in you being a HC-MSV-F.
  
  

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