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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Tue Feb 2 03:37:48 EST 1999
  
  raj, mudhalile konjam moochu vidunga.. ivvalavu perisaa orE moochile post panniyiruppeenga polirukku:-)))
  regarding ur arguments for BGM, so what if it has been there for a long time? what was in the vogue in TFM at that point of time? usage of BGM came to become a major force only with raja, i agree. but is that a point of comparison? u r talking about parameters of comparison, but i don't think BGM will fit into it at all!!
  past cannot be compared to present for several reasons:
  1. mindset of MD and the environment.. why didn't MKT sing in an operatic manner which was in vogue for a long time before?? why wasn't jazz used for a major part of TFM even when they were building churches for louis armstrong?? why didn't IR produce a heavy metal album?? this also points to the hollowness in your quoting ray as an example. the mindset was different at different points of time. carnatic was the base, then came mama and his smooth melodies, then the era of TMS and MSV-TKR, the way of composition was different.. the limits to experimentation were different.. if IR used a hungarian orchestra this age, those times a S.Rajeshvararao used a piano, ten double bass violins and drums from Africa, Egypt, and Persia for chandralekha.
  2. what are the "constant" parameters of comparison with respect to music anyway? i don't see any, for that matter.. the closest one to it will be the raagam in the songs vis-a-vis the mood of the song. even that needn't be an indicator as the later MDs' experimentation with the raagams themselves show.
  3.the contribution of music to a movie itself changes over time.
  
  about ur a+b calculation, by the "parameters" funda, b shouldn't even be taken into account while comparing..
  
  note that i have never said in my posting that IR is not the best because he is mediocre.. i have only said that ur arguments can only lead to saying IR is good, but not best!
  about ur twisting my comment in ur previous posting, it was just to show the folly in comparing MSV and IR. if we take liberties,then what i said might be as good as ur word.. that was why i put a "maybe" there!! that u safely missed the importance of the word "maybe" in my statement renders ur "case" null and void.
  so i will still respond with "We should not compare IR and old masters." rather than "Why IR is not the best.", to increase ur BP even further:-))))
  BTW, neenga enna lawyeraa? naanum inimel, ur honour, i rest my case nnullaam sollanum polirukke:-)) namakku idhu sarippattu varaadhu:))
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Feb 2 07:25:45 EST 1999
  
  I had resolved to stay away for atleast 24 hrs. But couldnt! Addiction??!
  
  BB: I have enough ammunition in my armoury to reply to you. But that is distracting me away from my primary aim here..which is to REFUTE karthi's claim . :)
  Actually, my post twisting your comment was dhkjsfl stuff..I forgot to mention! So, lets not pursue that line of argument any further.:)
  It will take far more than what you have come up with to increase my BP:). C'mon, you even said "IR is good". No, BB, try harder...let me see if you can break my cool ..:)
  I'll mention a couple of points:
  1." regarding ur arguments for BGM, so what if it has been there for a long time? what was in the vogue in TFM at that point of time? usage of BGM came to become a major force only with raja, i agree. but is that a point of comparison? u r talking about parameters of comparison, but i don't think BGM will fit into it at all!! "
  
  1. BGM wasnt in vogue in TFM pre-raja.
  2. BGM was in vogue in other FM(even SDB, salil choudhary had some good BGM scores) pre-raja. We all know MSV was familiar with HFM even in those days(Refer "MSV copy.." thread ', where I have narrated the incident where MSV watched "Bandini".) . SO, what prevented him from imbibing the good thing about other FM, namely BGM. He couldn't. He didn't.IMO..:)
  3. When Raja came into the picture in , say,1976, MSV was still King. Satyajit Ray was still giving superb BGM to his movies. So was Salil Choudhary. But in TFM , in 1976, was BGM a concept in vogue?
  No, sir. Just as when MSV came into the scene in 1952, BGM was an alien concept to TFM , in 1976 also , BGM was still an alien concept. MSV had 24 years to learn from nearby HFM and BFM(Mind you, he has been proved to be familiar with HFM atleast!). He chose not to. IR did. Inspite of the fact that the scene in 1976 was very much the same as when MSV came in 1952, Raja didnt choose to go with the existing idea. He had the vision to see that a movie was incomplete without BGM.
  Besides bringing in this concept, he didnt lose perspective over good melodies and great tunes as proved by his initial years' tunes. It is a matter of debate whether his later work can be classified as great tunes. I say it can be. You say it can't be9or atleast Karthi does!). So, he imbibed and maintained the tradition of TFM and also elevated it to a new level. Now, Why didnt MSV do it in 1952-76? If you say that it was because the trend in TFM was like that in that period , then MSV was only as good as or as bad s his peers.You must also remember that when Raja came into picture , this trend was still prevailing. But Raja swam against the current and succesfully incorporated a vital aspect of movie-making, which had hitherto been ignored by TFM. That alone doesnt qualify his "greatestness". He had all the otehr qualities one can find in MSV and predecessors. What I wanted to say was "BGM was always there in Olden days..but TFM MD's didnt have the enterprise , if not ability, to bring it to TFM...remember "Can do it.But will not do it" == "CAn't do it"..!
  Secondly , how can you discount BGM as a common factor which is suitable for all eras as a parameter? Just because TFM didnt have it until 1976? How is that fair?
  1.MKT didnt sing in operatic manner(whatever that may be)..probably, HH does now. That is NOT a parameter which we can use to compare HH and MKT.
  2.Jazz wasnt used in TFM earlier. Who cares two hoots if it is being used today? That is NOT a parameter.
  3.Okay, even Orchestration cannot be used as a parameter.
  4,. But BGM should be and will be used as a parameter. It is idle to deny the vitality of BGM to a movie. That has been so all through 50 years in OTher FM except TFM. From 1900-2000, BGM has been a vital part of film-making all over the world , just like screenplay. Except TFM. That doesnt deny BGM its due place as a vital parameter in film-making. Give me some other reason than "Old masters went with Existing trend" to justify your claim that "BGM cannot be a parameter". This argument only proves they were incapable of thinking ahead of times , which Raja did. Should we not , then , appreciate him for this and call him the greatest?
  The contribution of a music to movie changes over ttime? In what sense? You mean that the contribution of music to THE POPULARITY of a movie changes over time? Maybe. But the contribution of music to a movie's quality always was, is and shall be :
  1. Matching the mood of the movie
  2. Matching the MOOD OF THE MOVIE.
  3 MATCHING THE MOOD OF THE MOVIE.
  
  
  
  In the Indian context, Songs were an added criteria. Whether they followed Jazz style or Carnatic style or WC or Punjabi folk is secondary. Whether they conveyed the emotions of the movie and its characters : this has always been the criterion.This shall always be the criterion.
  But if you want to include excellence in Carnatic, WC, Fusion , Bengali Folk, Gujarati Folk, etc . as criteria,too, Touch your heart and tell me:
  (Karthi, IU have copied your phrase:))
  Who excelled in ALL these genre?
  
  This is the basic contribution of music to a movie AND this HAS NOT changed over the years. There is no reason why it will in the future. Maybe the contribution to POPULARITY of a movie might change..probably it already has(Recording quality et al..). But how does that matter? We didnt claim IR was the most successful in popularising a movie, Did we?
  We claimed "IR is the best MD *TFM* has ever had."
  We have justified that , too, by pointing out his contribution to the quality of a movie. So, your claim that we cannot compare "old masters" and IR doesnt hold water!
  Now, why is it that none of you can come up and say that "Raja's contribution to a movie's quality was not substantial..so, he is not the best". Either you say we cannot compare OR you try to suppress vital aspects like BGM . Why is Raja treated so shabbily ? Why is he not given his due?
  
  
  When all MD's swam with the current (No BGM, good tunes), MSV came first in that competition. So, he was good. But IR chose to swim against the current. He covered everything that MSV and predecessors covered(Forget the technicalities like chord progressions, TELLME , DID or DIDNNT RAJA GIVE 1.Great tunes 2. Memorable melodies 3. Wonderful BGM?). He did this by swimming against the current. He can be compared to Tenzing who scaled Everest first. Now, in the future 1000 people may touch the everest that he has already touched. But people will remember only Tenzing..maybe, we'll remember in the future "The first woman MD to give decent BGM" etc. Thats all that can be said for them .
  RAJA HAS SCALED THE EVEREST, WHY , I WOULD SAY HE HAS SCALED THE SKY. THE COMING GENERATION CAN ONLY EMULATE HIM.
  
  
  BB, I dont have the energy to simultaneously refute both
  1. Why we cant compare
  2. If we can compare, why IR is not the best
  
  Hereon,I'll spend my energies only on refuting 2.
  
  Still, to summarise, I have told you
  1. Why BGM shall remain an important criteria in evaluating a MD .If you want to reiterate your claim that "We cant compare..", come up with a new argument, please:)
  2. Why if we consider all parameters that Karthi ans others have thrown up +BGM, Raja is the best.
  
  Thats all I have enrgy for now.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Feb 2 07:32:12 EST 1999
  
  BB: I am not a LIAR. So, I cant be a lawyer!
  NOM,please.Just recycling a old,old,joke!
  
  I just wantd to sound dramatic. Hence the reference to "case" etc.:)
  
  
• From: glucon-d paiyan (@ compq1.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Tue Feb 2 07:34:33 EST 1999
  
  ungaLukku thEvai glucon-D!!
  
  

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