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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Mon Feb 1 22:15:02 EST 1999
  
  raj, i think u had completely missed my point. anyway, i had already read ur posting on ray, and u needn't have bothered to repeat it (araicha maavai...) here:-)
  the point i was trying to make is this: at this point of time, u can compare the current and the past and point out the ways in which IR is better than MSV and others. but that doesn't make him the best and the comparison isn't fair at all. about ur posting on BGM being used in ray's movies etc, gimme a break.. we r talking about tfm here. otherwise, we shouldn't even be comparing mahendran with MR, but with sergei eisentein and the like.
  let me see if u can follow this: will u claim that einstein is a better guy than newton?? if so, that will be the most atrocious thing to do. true, einstein achieved more than newton did, but is that it? one cannot belittle earlier works just because there are newer ones, which obviously improvise. u r comparing sridhar and manirathnam, r u justified in it? they belong to different times of film making and should not be compared. will u go around comparing dialogues of dhalapathi with dialogues of manohara?? what was in the vogue at that time??
  finally, i see that in the avidness of appreciating current things, we tend to forget the circumstances of the achievements of the previous generations. if MSV was in this generation, may be deva & co wouldn't have been in this field at all!!
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Mon Feb 1 22:18:12 EST 1999
  
  as far as ur dalen mehndi reference goes, please read my posting again.. i was just pointing out to what might happen in the future, and if u find that outrageous, pity u...
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 212-12-220.ipt.aol.com) on: Mon Feb 1 22:34:57 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth:
  Surukkama solla pona, thoozha tamizhla pesindu, athan, athimber, mythunar enrellaam oruthara oruthar koopita, nalla sandhathoda, fusht class raagathulla music kodukkellaam. Illa periya sangeetha vidawan, for example JKB, maadhiri oru role irundha nalla carnataka sangeethamae kodukkalaam. Appadiyum illa naa, atleast oru excellent Bharathanatyam dancera irundha, melodious tune kodukkellaam. Adha vittutu, pant satta potu collegela galata pannanganaaka, 'April May, June Julynnu' thaan paatu podamudiyum. Andha maadhiri sequenceukku enna, "kaalangalil aval vasantham" pola va tune poda mudiyum ? Chinna pasanga thathuva paadal paadina, "Kuzhanthayum, Theivamumunnu" nalla melodiousa tune poda mudiyum. Adha vittu avanga "motta maadila, love jodiya" paathu time pass pannangana, sandham engey, brigham enge ?
  
  "Idhellam ARRum panna, avara mattum thappu sollunga" enru neenga ketkalaam. Tune konjam flata irundhaalum paravailla, atleast it's music. konjam orchestrationaavadhu irukkum. Adhuvum illaamal, kazhutha yaaro aruval eduththu vettara maadhiri oru kaatu kaththal kaththina, adhu peru yenna ? But I don't blame ARR for catering to current tastes. It is fully justified. Of course, what I think of current taste cannot even be mentioned here ;-)
  
  The question is not if MSV has done a little bit of what IR has done. That can be easily countered by the fact that IR too has pretty significant melodies to his credit. You have been parotting "Ulagam Suttrum Vaaliban" for so long, you are refusing to admit that every other hit of IR equals and often surpasses USV in BGM and interludes !
  
  As for albums, if IR did a NTW and a HTNI, he has also done a Ramana Malai and a few other devotionals. MSV did only devotionals, where is his WCM album or fusion album ? Fill in the blanks, sir ;-)
  
  As for rythm, that is probably IR's weakest point (not compared to others, but compared to his own creativity in other depts.) and that is why people pounce on it so easily without realising that the rythm section by itself is far more restricted than any other part of a song - and IR has not failed there. He has still come up with innovative rythms - well, maybe not exactly rythms, but beats - the rythm is even more restricted. With WCM compositions, you cannot have much experimentation with the rythm. And a song full of drum rolls is not my idea of innovative percussion. For complex tunes as MSVs, and irregular tunes of ARR's the rythm can be changed off and on as they wish. But when the song is as well structured as IR's, the rythm is a well-entrenched component of the song - as opposed to being a stand-alone piece that develops as and when the tune is created. The idea here is the big picture. IR had it all. MSV had the melody. ARR has all the fun :-) Deva unfortunately has all the movies :-(
  
  Result:
  
  MSV is the best melody maker
  ARR is the best whatchamacallit
  and IR...is the BEST MD.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 212-12-220.ipt.aol.com) on: Mon Feb 1 22:38:09 EST 1999
  
  Hey bb ! Same point, different perspective ! Didn't see your post when I started writing ! Just because IR overwhelmingly ruled "only" his period does not make him a lesser MD to MSV ! If IR had been MSV's peer...?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-78.il.us.ibm.net) on: Mon Feb 1 23:14:02 EST 1999
  
  Srinath - thats what i call Algorithmic music of Raja. Too much structuring in music, it is more mechnical, where are the slures, brigas and other intresting things, Raja failed to do so.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab7.theatrium.net) on: Tue Feb 2 00:20:54 EST 1999
  
  SM!
  
  I see a point in what you say. But I would also say you're only trying to be modest in saying that IR's melodies are only just 0.5 - 1% (BTW, where you got these numbers from?) less melodious than MSV-TKRs. Come on SM, why don't you be factual and accept that the old duo's melodies are the best?
  
  My feeling is that an MD is widely judged only through his songs. Because we always compile mostly only the songs and hear them.
  
  I have heard of people going to movies saying:
  
  "Aaha andha padathula paattu ellaam ethanai attagAsama irukku!".
  
  I have never heard of anyone going to a movie saying:
  
  "Appa, ennamaa BGM irukku theriyuma, adhanaaladhaan naa andha padathukkE pOnEn!".
  
  I would only rate the latter as...well.
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Tue Feb 2 01:13:02 EST 1999
  
  srinath:when i say IR and MSV cannot be compared per se, it automatically means that u cannot make statements like IR is not a lesser MD than MSV and so on.. as far as ur quest for finding out MSV's WCM album and fusion albums, i find it extremely childish:-)) aduthaathu sangathi ellaam namakkEndi avan sambaLam paadhi kimbaLam paadhi vaangaraandi ;))
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Feb 2 02:17:59 EST 1999
  
  " BGM being used in ray's movies etc, gimme a
  break.. we r talking about tfm here. "
  
  BB, You missed my point!!
  
  Why I quoted Ray ? To prove that BGM is not a modern concept, as you claimed. Why I had to go to Ray? Because I didnt have proper examples in TFM.
  QED!
  
  See, Film-making itself changes. But the basic pattern doesn't change, does it?
  You have a hero(mostly), heroine(even more compulsory), story, *music* and so on...
  
  I havent missed your point about futility of comparing past and present. My argument is if we identify the right parameters and avoid the technical aspects(which are bound to change), we should be able to compare the past and the present. I dont know what mental block you have in doing that.
  Wont you agree with me if I say , whatever changes, Cinema will still continue to deal with human beings and emotions ? These emotions might themselves change... TRENDS might change but the basic structure of a movie doesn't change, boss!
  In the past we had MGR..Now Rajni ..who knows it may be Vijay tomorrow...that pattern has not changed...but their habits have..MGR never smoke on-screen, Rajni did but after turning hero was never villianous..vijay is playing villain after being hero. Ultimately, the structure of a populist hero remains. Only his parameters have changed. So, to say that BGM, as a concept, might disappear in the future is , IMO, mere surmise. To tailor our thoughts to suit that surmise doesn't befit logic! Hence, I have, indeed, GOT your point but am only questioning its validity. So, imo(i must observe), please refute my ASSERTION that PAST CAN BE COMPARED TO PRESENT citing valid reasons . I'll aaccept that. But I cannot accept if you simply say I have missed your point:)
  
  Please dont make sweeping statements such as "You have missed my point"! My point is :
  1.BGM is not a concept that was conceived by cineastes world over in the 1970's. It has been there in Hollywood for 50 years+. This concept has beeen there in Ray's movies 40 years back. Only TFM didnt bother about this aspect too much.
  2. Since this concept has been in vogue for 50 years as a basic tenet of film-making, it is safe to assume that it will survive in the future.
  So, it took IR in the 1970's to bring this concept to TFM .
  This concept is not just another concept. BGM adds jeevan to a movie. If you can envisage a movie without BGM, well...what can I Say?
  
  ANOTHER THING:
  "one cannot belittle earlier works just because there are newer ones, which obviously improvise."
  
  Yes, I agree!
  
  But when
  " A new work not merely improvises on the older work;When the new work is a totally 'new' concept; when the new work covers all that the old work has covered and in addition scales newer frontiers, then, I must observe that "THE NEW WORK WITH ALL THESE QUALITIES IS BETTER THAN THE OLD WORK" .
  IR didnt merely improvise on old concepts of music.
  He a)retained the melody structure, and gave a new dimension to Orchestration and BGM. So, that he retained the melody structure(Please, we can keep on saying that MSV/TKR gave more melodies than IR and vide-versa without proving anything.IR has given a substantial number of melodies to prove his worth in that aspect..Karthi, you have acepted as much earlier when you said in his earlier years, he gave good melodies.You cant refute this point!) proves that he was equal to the old masters.
  Then, b)he surpassed them in BGM and orchestration.
  
  So, old masters score: a
  Raja: a+b.
  Hence, Raja is the best. Please lets not trade numbers, figures, song names, movie names and percentages. That will prove nothing.
  I must observe that the only way to refute my proof above is to deny that Raja DOES have a substantial number of melodies to his credit . So, if anyboy wants to say Raja was not the best, please have the tenacity to say "Raja didnt give a good number of melodies". In as many words.
  
  (This is what Srinath meant by saying "To prove that Raja is not the best, you have to "TAKE AWAY" from his achievements, whcih you can't. HEads I win.Tails you lose :) "
  
  bb: I have more poitns to refute your claim. I dont have time now. Tomorrow, I'll be back.
  Athuvarai, ungalidiramirunthu vidai peruvathu, Ungal nanban :
  
  IR_Fan Rajesh!
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Feb 2 02:51:32 EST 1999
  
  BB: One last point before I sign-off for the day. You claim , OOH, that it is futile to compare MSV and IR.
  OTOH:You are saying "Maybe, MSV is greater than Raja".
  Wondering where you said the above sentence? It is this way: You have said:
  1.If MSV had been there today, the likes of Deva maybe, wouldnt be in the field at all.
  2. Then there is this fact:IR is active today .Still, Deva is flourishing .
  
  So, IR couldnt prevent Deva.But, maybe MSV could have.
  
  If I connect (1) and (2), doesnt it imply you are saying "Maybe, MSV is greater than Raja"?
  
  Hence, you yourself have proved that it is not futile to compare past and present - You have made that comparison.
  Hence I am justified in comparing IR and MSV.
  Hence , I am justified in presenting my case "IR is best".
  Hence, you need to respond with "Why IR is not best" rather than "We should not compare IR and old masters."
  So, I hope there is no more of this stuff:"I admire IR but no point comparing IR and Deva. Both are good in their own way!":)
  
  So, I want all who decry Raja's status as the best to say in as many words that "Raja wasn't good in melodies" OR "Raja wasn't good in Chord Progressions"(Srikanth, BTW, Can you explain this term next in "Eduating TFM .." thread . next?). Only then will their assertion that "He is not the best" be justified, I must observe. :)
  
  

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