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Musical Merits &Demerits of IR and ARR [Only for fans, not fanatics!]

Topic started by V (@ 147.129.99.180) on Thu Jul 17 16:26:37 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

To bring our healthy/unhealthy discussion on music merits and demeits of IRR and ARR out of the Thangar Bacchaan thread I starting this thread so that it would be more appropriate.

I expect people who post here to be fans and not typical fanatics. Expecially the young ARR fans and the "Theevira" Raja fans

Thanks!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Jag (@ 35.9.20.114) on: Tue Sep 23 15:29:20 EDT 2003
  
  Maddy,
  Just to let you know, S/W recession is only in the US. India is actually booming with S/W industry. 2002 had a reported increase of 20-30% growth in the software exports. Indian economy has been growing at a steady rate over the years(apprx 6% according to Prof.Vidyasagar CEO, TCS).
  
  I don't think Britney's songs have anything to do with glamour, I would rather say that they are quite vulgar. Anyway these things are more of opinions rather than hard facts. Most of things shown in movies would be considered vulgar 20 years ago and as time progresses people get used to such changes.
  
  
• From: rajasaranam (@ 210.214.128.203) on: Wed Sep 24 00:50:11 EDT 2003
  
  MADDY,
  
  the animated female in the girlfriend song was wearing dress covering all her body parts and there was no exposure.and britneys dance movements and dress code doesnt suggest any vulgarity to any of us. while all tamizh songs r vulgar in their content even 'maarbukku mathiyila sethupoga venumadi' is the height of vulgarity.
  thx for enlightening me.
  
  
• From: Podda (@ 217.168.35.200) on: Wed Sep 24 05:28:24 EDT 2003
  
  dei paran peh puunnddda mavene, unnuku onnu solla illana suthai pothikittu orrama poi irru.
  
  You really can't discuss or carry out proper arguement. You got no points to make or facts to point out. All your post are vetti.
  
  
• From: MADDY (@ 203.94.234.52) on: Wed Sep 24 13:38:39 EDT 2003
  
  see dunt start the lyrics sh*t again RS sir..... i wunt blame Md's for lyrics...they are pathetic creatures in front of directors,lyricists,producers.......... i told u that these songs are very subtle depiction of Glamour whereas manmadha rasa was a very gawdy depiction.....
  
  
• From: Dude (@ 131.193.154.91) on: Wed Sep 24 16:31:56 EDT 2003
  
  This is the discussion from 'Ilayaraja symphony' thread. I am bringing it here because I feel it is more relevant here than in that thread... Friends, please respond here...
  
  
  From: vijay (@ 68.51.215.28) on: Wed Sep 24 02:46:01 EDT 2003
  
  
  Dude, mukkal songs has nothing to do with a composer's ability (or inability). If anything songs like "Nila kaayudhu"(composed in Sriragam) reflected his abilities more, in adapting Carnatic scales to such situations, especially coming from a spiritual guy like him :-) You can accuse him from an ethical standpoint, but not from a creativity point of view. That still remains a very good composition in my books. Secondly, in addition to just songs you guys should start considering re-recording as well. After all re-recording is in a composer's job description and a composer gets paid for that. In hollywoood all that a composer ever gets to do is create BGM scores. Whereas in TFM, re-recording is not even being considered in debates. Sad. Lets see how the other MDs fare w.r.t IR in this regard ;-)
  
  
  
  From: Dude (@ 131.193.154.91) on: Wed Sep 24 14:08:50 EDT 2003
  
  
  Vijay, I stand corrected. The cheap sounds featuring in songs has nothing to do with the MD's creativity, I accept. But I wanted to highlight the way in which IR and ARR approached such songs.
  
  As many people claim, if IR had so much clout in the industry, he could as well have said no to the demands by the directors/producers to have such 'mukkal/munagal' sounds in songs. IR not doing that (clearly) shows his intention of willfully resorting to such cheap tricks for titillation. Yes, I do accuse him from an ethical as well as an aesthetical standpoint.
  
  Now, I can understand (not accept) such sounds in a song coming in a song like -'Kanna thorakkanum saaami' just after the 'aariroooo' scene in Mundhanai Mudichu. Bhakyaraj would have wanted a song specifically with those sounds.
  
  But in a song like 'Vanidhavani' from Vikram which is an amazing song acc. to me, these mukkal/munagal sounds appear initially. I am sure that even without those sounds the song would be as amazing. For, both SPB and Janaki both did their jobs well with well modulated voices to bring out erotism. I dont know why IR resorted to such sounds...
  
  Kupps, when I said 'situation demanded', I meant songs like 'Kaadhoduthaan naan paaduven', etc. Can you give examples of the songs you mentioned?
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Vatsa (@ 62.188.13.219) on: Wed Sep 24 18:44:25 EDT 2003
  
  Dude,
  
  I totally agree with that. IR has given few songs. But some of the songs with mukkal munagal had some great creative music in it. I wonder why IR need to add those unless its insisted by producer or director (in some cases). The one case which I remember is "Nila Kayuthu ..." which a good song( I still wonder IR came up with such a song for the situation as someone earlier pointed out). The same movie had "Nethu rathiri" thats 2 out of 5 songs. Looks a bit odd, unless its some kind of trend then (like a period where there used to be a hero introduction song), with silk smitha in one of the songs its substantiates it. Because I recall most of early 80s masala movies had one glamour dance. I dont recall any other mukkal songs of IR, sorry.
  Vatsa
  
  
• From: V (@ 24.59.96.237) on: Wed Sep 24 22:15:40 EDT 2003
  
  The mukkal munangal part has been debated to the core by me and RS.
  
  I dont want to open that topic again.
  
  I FULLY accept with RS's view that Rural people do not buy many cassettes and it is under-represented in the casette sales.
  
  In fact RS, I started a thread in this same newtfmpage titled "Whose music wins the heart of the Rural People? - Ofcourse IR!".
  
  You might be wondering so much from a hard-core ARR fan right?
  
  Well let me explain a little bit. All my posts in TFM were kind of anti-arr. But not typical hatred posts but a post from someone who has been unhappy with ARR's music in the last 2 years.
  
  I used to blast the hardcore ARR fans who claim pareasuram is suuuper hit11!!! album of century!!!!ARR is GOD... Although i abused the stupid fans who overhyped ARR's lacklustre albums, I never abused ARR directly becos he is a great soul. I regard ARR and IR as the greates people in Music. If someone badmouths ARR I will have to defend him!@!!!
  
  
  You know what event or what post changed my attitude completely??? Your derogatory post on ARR when u said he composed for blue film fire. From that post on I thought after all I love ARR and I have to defend him from such accusations.
  
  I know you are going to think this post is so much bull-shit. or you might even say nice "samalippu" or something, but go and check the post titled "Whose music wins the heart of the rural people? Ofcourse IR!" It was started by ME - an objective IR fan(not the typical one)
  
  sorry to post something off-topic, but I wanted to strongly express my agreement with RS on the casette sales issue cos not a lot of time we agree on things.
  
  
• From: saravana (@ 68.102.214.55) on: Wed Sep 24 23:49:45 EDT 2003
  
  When there is a necessity of such mukkal/munagal songs or words in the film you have to keep it.
  
  sex is a part and parcel of life. So when there is an action sequence ina film there will be scenes/music/lyrics pertaining to sex& romance.
  
  In my opinion IR has done excellent job than ARR or all other craps in all walks of music.. be it
  folk,western,carnatic etc
  
  
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 203.199.209.101) on: Thu Sep 25 02:11:56 EDT 2003
  
  Dude,
  
  you can look in the list of jaaz kind of songs sung by LRE. Some of them have munangal in them.
  
  I quoted your "situation demanded" just to point out "for pre-IR era those kind of songs are situation demanded but for IR songs all are imposed by tune itself" kind of mentality.
  
  Infact except for very few of IR's mukkal-munangal songs rest are all indeed situation demanded one.
  
  The vanithaamani song, as you pointed out, does not demand those mukkals by SJ. I agree. But I have agreed that IR has the lions share in mukkal munangal songs in TFM.
  
  One more thing -- "Since IR had a great say why could not he just avoided such mukkal munangal requests from others". If you see IR's attitude is he sees such a request as yet an another scene not more than that. He doesn't bother about the morality point and all. Remember after turning into so much spiritual he willingly scored for the movie KadavuL (which is a farce, a publicity stunt in the name of atheism). I guess IR is like those great advocates (like jethmalani) who appears before the court for obvious culprits saying that "even the accused has right to put forth his/her point".
  
  For many of us (including me) IR should have avoided such immoral requests but for them its just a part of their profession even though they may or may not subscribe to those immoral views.
  
  But again, my question is, is this a reason for saying IR is not a great/genius.
  
  Also i reiterate that volume is (esp. volume in qualitative outputs) also an important parameter for judging a persons greatness. Because it shows the abundance of creativity residing in that person. Just because one says that IR has given large volume of output one cannot equate Deva or SAR to him by literally taking the word volume.
  
  Oneway I can agree Deva even though he is known as copycat to more....but SAR....please don't provoke me :-)
  
  
• From: Speaker (@ 203.126.142.232) on: Thu Sep 25 06:48:38 EDT 2003
  
  IR gave mukkal munagal so he is bad MD, He gave ennarul tharum Annapoorani - Still is bad MD, because these statements come not because of Music, it is because still is the the No.1 in Music. See the posts, "they" take casette sales, overseas contract, mtv selection, highest tax payer, highest paid MD, but when it comes to MUSIC, Gap chip...In context to other thread IR biggest blunder, being DEVOTED to/for MUSIC..
  
  
• From: Mythila (@ 203.200.33.65) on: Thu Sep 25 08:24:18 EDT 2003
  
  I nod in disapproval at the crass songs of IR , bordering on vulgarity like "Nila kaayudhu",
  inspite of the lilting, melodious, raaga based tune. The song from film Bramha "Rathiri neram rayiladi oram" , set to raaga Simhendramadhyamam could have easily passed off as yet another memorable melody from IR.But the cheap lyrics and overdone konashtais by SJ/SPB do leave a bitter taste behind.
  But there are also examples like "Kanavu onru thonrudhe" from "Oru Odai Nadhiyagiradhu", "Yaarai ketu thee thaan poovai theendutho" from a lesser known film "Yen uyir Kannamma" where IR has come up with decent melodies in such situations. Infact, the latter number is a moving song, rendered well by Chitra and the situation in the film is a love making scene between the lead pair.This song qualifies the pivotal , turning point in the movie.
  Another classic example could be "ennule ennulle" from "Valli".
  There is really no logical explanation for this contradictory presentation from IR.
  
  
• From: Vatsa (@ 160.83.32.14) on: Thu Sep 25 11:16:30 EDT 2003
  
  Mythila,
  
  You are right, we cannot provide any logical explanation and IR is the only person who can answer. All we can do is speculate.
  Most of the songs which were bad because of either poor lyrics and picturisation. There were few "konashtais, mukkals and munangals" which he could have well avoided
  
  Enulle is a very good song and a good example when he avoided this konashtai, though hearing it, you dont feel uneasy and the lyrics were not explicity. Its similar to ARR song "Nenjinile Nenjinile" from "Uyire".
  
  Vatsa
  
  

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