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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: rf (@ 172.159.51.151) on: Sun Aug 26 14:19:44 EDT 2001
  
  yaaro, thank you much! i will write to you soon!
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Mon Aug 27 13:23:20 EDT 2001
  
  before I say anything else, maruthi please avoid typing in CAPS. CAPS is generally used to indicate shouting/screaming.
  
  >>>>is there an India if not for the British. <<<
  
  well! I have heard people commending the brits, applauding the railway system, roadways etc introed to the brown skinned fakirs of india by the great white brits. nonsense!
  
  We lack self esteem. I think its totally true. I am doing a lot of personal research on our indian mentality and the way we approach life.
  
  The brits did everything for their comfort. They had ample time to choose when to leave the country and in what state to leave th country when they left the land.
  
  The unified India(w/o pakistan) that we are seeing has its origins from the days of The King Bharath (s/o shakunthalai/dushyantan) although it did not span the entire geographical area of the current India it did strech to a significant %.
  
  So the brits, who are generations of plunderers and destroyers did nothing good to India. Infact If any of u guys visted south india to the nava- thirupathi places u will hear stories of how the british continued the mughal tradition of destroying temples. because they had sculptures of naked women , which was not acceptable to the conservative british society.
  
  A result of which Tanjore brihadesvar temple which is much superior and classical in terms of architectural marvel and design than Taj Mahal, has been pushed to the stagnant backwaters of publicity.
  
  The nonsense movies that came out with songs "diana diana" which exemplified some irrelevant person as a godess of love (she had a failed marriage and a extra marital affair in her resume) is the reflection of Indian society.
  
  How many movies have u seen with the big tenple as back drop! and while we are at it what is the difference between mughals and brits from the indian perspective. why are both enemies being glorified.
  
  as long as certain key elements in the Indian mind set are weeded out even in 100 years we will remain the same!
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Mon Aug 27 13:36:38 EDT 2001
  
  //"music in g.ramanathan in his famous song 'yaradi nee mohini' in sivaji's uththama puththiran. pl. correct me if i am wrong. "//
  
  wonderful mahabs! That is a wonderful song. Remember the way the lines go
  
  anbe aaaahh!
  yen anbe ha ha ha!
  yen anbe ne vaaa!
  (with claps!)
  ha! ha! ha ! ha!
  panpadum yen anbe nee vaa!
  haaaaaa!
  
  wonderful bit. absolutely western and very cool song. infact if u notice the song it changes to 6-7 different tunes. the way sivaji acted and looked was amazing. the way he clapped his hands in that song was totally awesome. I though no one noticed it but was glad when kamal mentioned sivaji's style in a bvery old interview of his!
  
  
  //"poovukkul song is indian style "//
  
  what movie?
  
  arun_uk,
  
  //"Do you want to be reminded of how many castes,communities and divisions "//
  
  well! they exist even today with full flourish and splendour. with greater flurish during election times! I guess the best way is to accept the caste system as part of our life (its been there for 1000 years) and concentrate on how to minimize the evils that are a by product of the caste system.
  
  looks like another dalit women was burnt somehwre in north india, man! we will never change I'll tell u! It is because there r too many unemployed people around and they are so idle that they will develop any emotion/jingoism/patriotism to bring some occupancy into their life.
  
  Do u remember the 10 people who rush to a spot when there is an accident. 9 are jobless out of which 4 want to rob anything thats on the victim 5 want to create trouble for people who want to help. The 1 who cud be useful will not sign anything. These people and the people i mentioned in the above para are the same!
  
  //"But the bottom-line is 'We need Openness'
  "//
  
  we come first our hospitality comes second. At a national level and a big scale hospitality and prostitution have a thin dviding line. given the nature of our people the latter is dominant.
  
  so w/o compromising our identity if there is a small innovation of foreign work then it is acceptable! I feel ARR is within acceptable limits even without us requiring to be very open minded
  
  
  
• From: g mauruthi (@ 203.197.156.66) on: Wed Aug 29 02:03:16 EDT 2001
  
  Dear Guys,
  
  Crossing Cultural barrier Means that your MUSIC can be Enjoyed by ppl from many CULtures.
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Thu Aug 30 17:48:27 EDT 2001
  
  A simple and small analysis...J
  
  What K. Vishwanath was for Telugu movies (Tamil too to a certain extent), I think IR is for the TFM as on today.
  
  I feel sorry for missing KV now-a-days. Well, directing is a different ball-game altogether. It asks for more physical stress, which is why I guess KV is not directing films anymore. Also, probably, feeling as not being in tune with the current trends could be another reason. (This can also be interpreted as "leaving gracefully" as some may call it).
  
  This is where I liked IR. We all know he has sounded quiet modern/western on many occasions. In fact, I have seen some elders blaming IR for sounding more modern during late 80's and early 90's. It was also during the same time that I think IR started sounding a little stale. But then, I would not blame IR fully for that. Because, there were not many quality films that were being made during those times. IR, I believe, gives a film what it deserves, if not more. Name a film that was good and IR’s music for that was bad (though most of the good films generally have good music!!!).
  
  IR has always been part of most of the successful films till about 9 yrs. back. He was the MD for almost all the great ones in Tamil (and partly Telugu) from 80s thru early 90s. I think he sounded quiet western in Agni Nakshathiram and Anjali. I don't think one gets to here a tabla/mridangam/dholak in Anjali. But even in these, quiet a bit of Indianness was there using violins, guitar, namba chorus etc. At that time, that was something new...there was nothing like it then. Being different is always something great people do. All great people have been doing that.
  
  I can find some similarities between IR’s and Mani Ratnam’s careers. Yes, I am going to compare themJ. Mouna Raagam was different and so we liked Mani Ratnam. MR is my favourite director as on today. We know what kind of music it had. No other movie was a bigger hit than Mouna Raagam at that time. Then came Nayagan. An underworld story, a leader's story. Till then, underworld in films meant violence. But then, in Nayagan, namba manasoda vilayaadinaar Mani. Mani's strong point has been that. He plays with the audience's heart. Mani was different. Nayagan was something new. And we know what IR gave.
  
  Then came Agni Nakshathiram. Yellamae pudhusu. The treatment given to the story, cinematography/art direction and music stand out. (Sorry, don't know much about art direction but am sure it helps cinematography). I think this was the time when Tamil/Telugu audience was really taken by surprise. And because it was a film for the youth, the youth were awe-struck. This is were I think people REALLY took a liking to western music. This was IR’s western touch of sort. Not that the youth did not listen to youthful western music before, but then, our movies have the largest reach in the country and nothing can affect people than films. Few things I noticed after Agni:
  - Cinematography improved for good.
  - almost every other movie had a group song for the hero’s introduction
  - all MD’s started sounding western and many songs/interludes were inspired/copied
  - all Chiranjeevi’s films (Telugu) had a song for him to dance, usually the intro song. Chiru is to AP, as Rajini is to Tamil Nadu. So, you can imagine the effect it would have had on the Telugu audience. And Chiru was considered the best (break)dancer in India then.
  - Hip-gyration, pelvic thrusts, heroines wearing scantily clad clothes became common in songs which even most of the conservative, middle-class youth accepted (gladly!!!?) and their families began to put-up with. Sure, high-class people would not have found much to object there.
  
  Then came Ram Gopal Varma’s Shiva – The Real Angry Young Man was back and here to stay. Just like what MR is to TF industry, RGV is to Telugu film industry. .The youth liked him. This was a very violent film. Became a crazy hit because of RGV, songs, BGM and the hero. Shiva was dubbed to Tamil (Udayam!!?) and remade in Hindi. It was then all violent films for sometime.
  
  Till MR came back with Geetanjali (Telugu)/Idhayaththai Thirudaadhae (Tamil). When all films had fast songs, mindless violence and senseless story, came this youthful romantic film with a wafer-thin story, a unique MR treatment, with no violence, for that matter, without a villain. The villain was there - destiny.
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Thu Aug 30 17:49:48 EDT 2001
  
  contd...
  
  And we know the kind of music it had. At a time when people were fed with fast crazy numbers, IR gave soothing melodies, and yes, he touched their hearts.
  
  Love was in the air. There were more affairs among youth, in the open, who thought it was love (pun intended J). More romantic movies were being made. Love at this time involved only a man and a woman. The youth could think only about the couples (surprised that they couldn’t foresee a third and forth as part of their familyJ). RGV started giving violent films.
  
  At this time we all fell in love with kutti paapa Anjali - MR’s most satisfying film till date. The very thought of such a film was unimaginable to any of the Indian film directors at that time. And he made it entertaining too!! MR could pluck the strings of our heart once again. While it was entertaining, I was amazed by the way IR used chorus for children. Imagine, elder’s chorus suited children!!! I don’t know how many of you noticed this in the songs – children start singing the pallavi, charanams are sung primarily by the female chorus and children sing the pallavi again. The songs were more western-oriented, but still, IR’s mark was there – the violins, percussions, chorus, trumpet, guitar, flute, etc. It was IR’s western compositions of sort.
  
  Then came Dalapathi. Ketkanuma!!! Padum theriyum, adhun musiccum theriyum. As MR said, it was “a violent story with an emotional under-current”. I will see it as a film with 3 love stories : one between a mother and a son, one between friends, and the other, a simple love story (is it triangular love story, maybe, but we don’t really feel so I guess). Yes, MR gave us Superstar Rajini lying with his head on his mother’s lap, an emotional song “china thaai aval…” while following his mother Sri Vidya in a temple, in slow motion, another superstar Mammotty who could leave his mark, and a newcomer Arvind Swamy who made his mark inspite of all these people. But yes, many felt it was violent, moreso, the elder people. Probably, because there was more red in the film, a change from the usual MR films. The reason could be that Santosh Sivan was the cinematographer for this film. I felt that it was SS’s style ‘cause that is how his work was in Bhagavad Gita (was this the right movie!!?). Dalapathi music therinjadhudhaan. However, the album was good but not all songs were immediately arresting and captivating like the earlier hits. If anybody felt the “emotional under-current”, they would understand its music.
  
  Look at MR till here. Look at Mouna Raagam, Nayagan, Agni Nakshathiram, Geetanjali, Anjali and Dalapathi. Each one was different. And IR was different in each of these movies.
  
  I took only MR and RGV because they were the only 2 directors who really made a lasting impact on people and film industry in South. Other than these few films, there were not many great films during those years.
  
  MR joined K. Balachander, and naturally, they had to look for a different MD. Moreover, it was around the same time that IR went to London for RPO. If I remember right, it was between Feb-Apr. It was around the same that Roja was released. ARR brought a new sound technology and music to us which took people by surprise. Then of course, Bombay and Dil Se happened to MR and ARR. ARR got the opportunity to work for MR, KB, Shankar and Bharatiraja.
  
  K. Vishwanath was on the decline or probably stopped making films. RGV choose IR only for Shiva. Then he tried Keeravani (Maragadhamani), Raj-Koti, worked with R.D. Burman as RGV was his fan, then tried promoting MDs from Hyderabad. BTW, RGV has been promoting new talents, Sandeep Chowta the MD, being the most successful of those. IR did not have any top director, there by, rarely got good movies. I don’t really remember many coming his way with good production values.
  
  I liked MR because he was different. The qualities of the 3 main leads in Mouna Raagam, Kamal-Saranya scene in the brothel house when they meet for the first time in Nayagan, the clash between Karthik and Prabhu in Agni..(nobody would move in the theatre), the confrontation between hero and heroine in rain on the railway platform in Geetanjali, the scene when baby Shamilee hits Revathi in Anjali, when Rajini tells his story to his child, Rajini lying with his head on his mother’s lap, and “china thaai aval…” song between Rajini and Sri Vidya, tearing Madhubala’s blouse getting torn by Aravind Swamy in Roja (usually a scene involving a villain and the heroine), and many others stand out. The element of innocence he brings into some of these scenes is very captivating.
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Thu Aug 30 17:50:49 EDT 2001
  
  contd...
  
  Roja and Bombay were great. I did not like Thiruda Thiruda much as it was lacking something. Also, for the first time I did not like a female leads’ (Anu’s) dress in a song in MR’s film. Something was missing in Iruvar. Mani tried a different approach of story telling which many did not understand. I personally liked Dil Se though many didn’t. Again, Manisha and Priety Zinta’s dresses during could have been better in Dil Se.
  
  Similarly, IR has given quiet some lousy songs. In fact, after Roja happened, I don’t think I listened to his name that year except for the symphony. He had some setbacks too, the main being that of the symphony. I am not sure if anybody can realize how hurt and upset he should have felt at that time. No top director was working with him. I somehow strongly feel that during the making of Dalapathi MR may not have liked IR’s attitude (I feel I understand IR and MR quiet wellJ). It was as though everybody in Tamil and Telugu film industry had boycotted him. He seems to have done some soul-searching, got recharged and now I feel is back. I also notice that his music has become less noisy and has become more melodious than before (during late 80s and early 90s in many of those lousy movies).
  
  What I like about IR is his courage and determination - courage to do things the way he likes and determination not to give up. While every MD is sounding more western IR is the only one today who doesn’t mind composing music that sounds more Indian. He knows that they may not be chartbusters. But still, he does what he feels is good for the film or what it deserves. His best albums in the last 9 yrs. could be Guru, Kaadhalukku Mariyaathai, and Bharati. Of course, he has only been improving in BGM day-by-day. And yes, there have been quiet a few of those 2-3 songs from average films which may not be great shakes but are good. Even some of the good ones got ignored for various reasons. There have been melodies like Gaayathiri Ketkum, Meetaadha Oru Veenai, Koil Mani Kettaene, Maamaraththula Oonjal which are better than many of those “top 10” songs. SPB rendered “Gaana kuyile kannurakam ponadhadi” is a classic composition. It is perfect like “Kodiyilae malliyapoo” from Kadalora Kavithaigal.
  
  One thing I have noticed about IR is that he seems to have this instinct that tells him how a film is going to shape into. In fact, during the Hey Ram interview on Sun TV, the way he just laughed and said “kadha yellam namakku yedhuku” or something to that effect to Santana Bharati gave an indication to me that the film was not going to be great. He did praise Kamal’s screenplay and also said “all notes are mine”. Hey Ram was probably good in individual technical aspects but something was lacking in the film as a whole. It couldn’t hold the viewer’s attention the way Roja or Bombay could. This is probably the reason why he has given crap to movies that deserve it. Not that he wanted to give it, but there was nothing much in it that could inspire him to give something better. Inspiration is required more importantly for creative people (matthava anyway vettiyaa thane iruppaJ !!). Even ARR says MR and Shankar are able to get his best because they succeed in motivating and inspiring him in giving his best.
  
  In these times, when everybody is taking to west, I can see that IR wants to give that Indian flavor to his songs. His films like Nilave Mugam Kaattu, Kanna Unnai Thedugiren, Kakkai Siraginile, Anthahpuram(Telugu), Desiya Geetham, Hey Ram, Sethu, Bharati, Friends, Ucire (Kannada), Aandan Adimai, Kaadhal Saathi and Kutti stand testimony to it. This could also be partly because medium/low budget film makers are the ones that are working with him. He is the only MD today who can give thappanguththu, folk, sad, carnatic and filmi-melodies using more authentic/natural Indian instruments without fearing failure. He wants challenging projects. He gives his best when there is motivation (not that he lacks enough self-motivation). He deserved a National Award for Bharati. He should have got it and that would have been a achievement of sort – with no big names/banners with him for 9 yrs. except for an occasional Priyadarshan or Fazil. This again is what his fans had wanted but not him. For him, Bharati was a prestigious film - an opportunity and a challenge to put to tunes the lyrics of the great Bharatiar. That was it.
  
  He really is doing his job and leaving the rest to time/destiny. He is not the one who is going to succumb to the pressures of success, fame or his fans. Some may feel that it is time for him now to make a decent exit. I disagree. In fact, we need more like him who realize the importance of our culture and strive to keep them up. Songs that sound more western are a welcome occasionally for the sake of entertainment but should not become our taste/way of life. They may provide an immediate kick and make you go crazy for a short while, but it is only the songs with more Indian flavor that can touch your hearts. The emotional/divine bliss (which has to do with ‘heart’ and ‘soul’) is something that only our culture can provide. While we can appreciate other styles of music and make use of them for experimentation purposes to create something new as part of being innovative/creative, we should make sure that we don’t lose our identity/roots. Safeguarding our culture is solely our responsibility and its failure is our failure – there should no second thoughts about it. How many MDs of today can compose good songs using more natural instruments that are much closer to us? Today, if we are not able to like the Indianness in our songs, it is because we have changed and have started liking others’ musical culture more than ours. Maybe, we lack enough pride.
  
  

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