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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Sat Aug 25 03:26:45 EDT 2001
  
  Digression :
  
  >>>>is there an India if not for the British. <<<
  
  Call me a conspiracy theorist if you will but the fact is that Bharath has been mentioned in the Rig Veda as the land beyond the Himalayas bounded by the ocean blah blah which our geography teacher..a christian mind you..used to quote so eloquently in Sanskrit !! I forget the name of the Veda and the exact shloka...knowledgeable persons pls clarify !!
  
  India had already existed in Spirit....the British only consolidated what had already been done by Great Emperors like Chandragupta Maurya, Asoka, Akbar etc...so please don't make such comments which are very untrue and contradict yourself. It is a well known fact about the "divide et impera" (divide and rule policy of the British. They sucked the life blood out of India to make Britain richer and left us with a legacy of corrupted bureaucrats and leaders...the effects of which can be felt till today. At least the muslim rulers settled down in India and adapted themselves and concentrated on contributing. The British were only parasites.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Sat Aug 25 11:04:34 EDT 2001
  
  I am not sure whether you guys studied tamil in high schools. arivumathi is correct (he got to be right). silappathikAram is considered to be a major musical work in tamil. I can forward you guys later the links why it is considered so. Coming to the specifics..indian music is - thAlaththOdu amaintha rAgam.. For eg. in Jeans, anbE anbE is not indian style..poovukkul song is indian style (atleast the pallavis). One good example inspite of using modern beats but still sticking to Indian tradition of making a song is 'kovil mani kEttEne' song in kanna unnai thedukirEn (listen to it in www.raaga.com).
  
  Re: craving for foreign stuff..In my not so humble opinion we as a lot lack self esteem..
  
  
• From: G MAURUTHI (@ 203.197.156.66) on: Sat Aug 25 13:32:06 EDT 2001
  
  MUSIC IS UNIVERSAL.
  
  IT IS ONLY BECAUSE U GET USED TO A PARTICULAR TYPE OF MORE ( LIKE IR,MSV SONGS INITIALLY FOR PPL IN TAMIL NADU ) FROM CHILDHOOD, YOU TEND TO LIKE IT MORE AND YOU GET THE KICK OUT OF THE MUSIC MORE EASILY.
  
  (DONT TELL ME IT IS IN THE GENES)
  
  THIS IS THE REASON PPL FROM SOUTH INDIA COULDNT PICK UP 'LAGAAN' BY ARR VERY EASILY ( EVEN THOUGH IT WAS MUSICALLY HIT IN NORTH INDIA.
  
  SO YOU TEND TO LIKE ONE TYPE OF MUSIC BETTER.
  
  BUT SOME PPL HAVE CROSSED CULTURAL BARRIERS - LIKE ARR -
  
  THESE DOESNT MEAN THAT YOU SHOULD NOT HEAR WESTERN MUSIC AND ONLY HEAR TAMIL FOLK MUSIC. PPL WHO SAY THIS ARE THE ONES WHO COULDNT GET THE KICK OUT OF OTHER TYPES OF MUSIC.
  
  WELL GUYS ANY COMMENTS...
  
  
• From: arun_uk (@ 195.99.125.204) on: Sat Aug 25 17:07:22 EDT 2001
  
  Sincere appreciation and Thanks to Bharat for provoking everyones' thoughts by starting this thread & to kiru,KS etc for imparting a lot of knowledge with their excellent comments.
  
  Cosmician..You refer to the British policy of 'divide & rule'. Are you implying that there was no DIVIDE & RULE in our country before the British? Do you want to be reminded of how many castes,communities and divisions existed in India before the Brtish/French/Portuguese or the Moghuls even set foot in India? We exploited our own people and that was our greatest weak point. To re-phrase your last sentence--- " The Britsh were no better parasites than our own countrymen"
  
  G MARUTHI's comments make an important observation- The need for open-mindedness when discussing music. While, I strongly believe that sticking to your own roots is vital, exploring/accepting newer ideas/concepts is equally important and NEVER wrong.
  The progression of the whole world has been based on learning/exchanging/borrowing/imparting ONES ideas/knowledge/concepts TO ANOTHER. You could apply this our Health system or technology or anything to do with everyday living for that matter.
  
  Every discussion in the the newtfmpage seems to finally boil down to 'Square-One'--- IR or ARR?
  
  While most of IR's work exudes tamil/indian flavour, it is indeed a fact that a significant proportion of ARR's ideas are from beyond 'our borders'. Is that wrong? IMHO it is likely to remain an unresolved debate. But the bottom-line is 'We need Openness'
  
  It is also unhealthy to compare the 2 giants. While ARR cannot be compared to the 'Genius' of IR, it is important to acknowledge that he is a man of 'class', especially considering the hardwork behind his music. It is also very important to remember that music is very subjective and everyone is a different individual.
  
  
• From: mahabs (@ 203.197.138.163) on: Sun Aug 26 01:38:35 EDT 2001
  
  why people like maruthi always bring this tiresome comparision? very disgusting.
  
  many mds have crossed the so called caltural barrier. i read somewhere that the first tamil md who attempted western music in g.ramanathan in his famous song 'yaradi nee mohini' in sivaji's uththama puththiran. pl. correct me if i am wrong.
  
  it should be like that if any culture wants to expand and grow.
  
  silappathikaram mentions many paNs. esp. the kaanal varikal are nice to read which have a wonderful thalam. also, kuravaik kooththu.
  
  but, i believe the first literary work with such paNs is the paripadal
  
  but, i am not aware of any attempts (at least in movies) to do music for silappathikaram. it would be great.
  
  intersted readers can refer this:
  
  http://www.aaramthinai.com/kalai/isai/index.asp
  
  anbudan
  
  mahabs
  
  
  
  
• From: rf (@ 4.54.221.75) on: Sun Aug 26 02:18:42 EDT 2001
  
  http://freeweb.econophone.ch/martin-frank/mary-d.htm
  Anyone can figure this out about a mention of IR?
  
  Mary roch Frühstück. Arun würde dort sein! Doch bevor sie aufstand, dachte sich Mary einen Augenblick lang aus, wie es wäre, mit Arun verheiratet zu sein, aufzuwachen, und wo jetzt Sheila lag, wäre Arun. Mary zog Sheila näher und küsste sie zum Scherz, nicht erwartend, was Sheila tat, sich lachend auf sie zu stürzen, in ihren Nacken zu beissen, und ihr ausgewählte Komplimente in die Ohren zu wispern, als wäre schon Marys Polterabend.
  
  Später, am Frühstückstisch, während Sheila mit Ernest scherzte, beobachtete Mary Arun, der mit seiner Teetasse spielte. Hari und Madhu hörten den witzigen Sachen zu, die Sheila sagte. Mary sah Arun an und plötzlich verstand sie, dass auch er hörte, doch nicht Sheila, sondern die Geräusche um sie, die Vögel in den Palmen, die Wellen, die auf den Strand krachten, Sheilas Lachen, entfernte Ponyglöckchen, und Rikshafahrerrufe. Aruns Augen waren halbgeschlossen. Ohne zu denken stiess Mary Hari an und flüsterte, "erinnert ihr euch an die Königin?"
  
  
  Die Hörnchen jagen sich
  Meine zahmen Tauben sind verliebt…
  
  Hari begann mit hoher Bollywood-Synchronstimme zu singen. Sheila fragte, "aus welchem Film ist das?"
  
  "Rani!"
  
  "Ist er neu?"
  
  Ernest fragte, "ist die Musik von Ilayaraja?"
  
  "Nein, A.S. Arun!"
  
  Arun grinste blödsinnig glücklich, beschämt, dass alle sehen konnten, wie glücklich er war, und Mary sah ihn an und übernahm das Lied von Hari, mit dem Vers, der am Jugendfestival zensuriert worden war
  
  
  Äffchen tun, was Äffchen mögen
  Und Äffchen mögen, was Äffchen tun.
  
  Dass Arun sich schämte, glücklich zu sein, und wie glücklich Hari und Madhu waren, Arun glücklich zu sehen, gab Mary das Gefühl, dass, wenn es ihr nur gelänge, diese Menschen zusammen zu behalten, alles in Ordnung käme. Sie schaute Ernest an, Hari, Madhu und Sheila, und dann wieder Arun, der den Rhythmus auf dem Tisch trommelte, brilliant die Zwischenschläge betonend, und in seinen Augen sah sie, dass er sie liebte, 'er liebt mich, und ich liebe ihn,' das ist,
  
  WAS MARY WUSSTE
  
  Zurück zur deutschen Homepage
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.48.152) on: Sun Aug 26 13:12:44 EDT 2001
  
  cant you figure out what it says-give me your e mail id-I will write to you personally.:-)
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.48.152) on: Sun Aug 26 13:21:12 EDT 2001
  
  http://freeweb.econophone.ch/martin-frank/mary-e.htm
  this is the same matter-in english.this appears to be a short story set in madras about a musician..
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.48.152) on: Sun Aug 26 13:23:31 EDT 2001
  
  Later at the breakfast table Sheila was talking with Ernest and Mary was watching Arun who played with his teacup, Hari and Madhu were listening to the witty things Sheila was telling, Mary looked at Arun, and suddenly understood that he was listening, but not to Sheila, to the voices around them, the birds in the palm-trees, the waves crashing onto the beach, Sheila's laughing, distant ikka bells and riksha driver shouts, his eyes were half-closed, he must be listening. Without thinking she nudged Hari and whispered to him, "do you remember the queens song?
  
  
  The squirrels are chasing each other
  My pet doves are in love…
  
  
  Hari began to sing with a high Bollywood lip-sync voice, and then Sheila asked him, "what film is this from?"
  
  "Rani!"
  
  "Is it new?"
  
  And Ernest said, "is the music by Ilayaraja?"
  
  "No, A.S. Arun!"
  
  Arun was grinning stupidly, ashamed that all could see how happy he was, and Mary looked at him, and taking the song from Hari, sang the line which had been censored at the Youth Festival
  
  
  Monkeys do what monkeys like
  And monkeys like what monkeys do.
  
  
  That Arun was ashamed to be happy, and how happy Hari and Madhu were, to see Arun happy, made Mary feel that probably, if only she could keep these people together, it would be alright. She looked at Ernest, at Hari, at Madhu, and at Sheila, and then back at Arun, who tapped the rhythm on the table, brilliantly hitting the off-beats rather than the beats themselves, and in his eyes she could see that he loved her, 'she loved him and he loved her' this is
  
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.48.152) on: Sun Aug 26 13:24:10 EDT 2001
  
  //Later at the breakfast table Sheila was talking with Ernest and Mary was watching Arun who played with his teacup, Hari and Madhu were listening to the witty things Sheila was telling, Mary looked at Arun, and suddenly understood that he was listening, but not to Sheila, to the voices around them, the birds in the palm-trees, the waves crashing onto the beach, Sheila's laughing, distant ikka bells and riksha driver shouts, his eyes were half-closed, he must be listening. Without thinking she nudged Hari and whispered to him, "do you remember the queens song?
  
  
  The squirrels are chasing each other
  My pet doves are in love…
  
  
  Hari began to sing with a high Bollywood lip-sync voice, and then Sheila asked him, "what film is this from?"
  
  "Rani!"
  
  "Is it new?"
  
  And Ernest said, "is the music by Ilayaraja?"
  
  "No, A.S. Arun!"
  
  Arun was grinning stupidly, ashamed that all could see how happy he was, and Mary looked at him, and taking the song from Hari, sang the line which had been censored at the Youth Festival
  
  
  Monkeys do what monkeys like
  And monkeys like what monkeys do.
  
  
  That Arun was ashamed to be happy, and how happy Hari and Madhu were, to see Arun happy, made Mary feel that probably, if only she could keep these people together, it would be alright. She looked at Ernest, at Hari, at Madhu, and at Sheila, and then back at Arun, who tapped the rhythm on the table, brilliantly hitting the off-beats rather than the beats themselves, and in his eyes she could see that he loved her, 'she loved him and he loved her' this is //
  i have done a c&p-happy rf?
  
  
  

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