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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Mon Feb 1 06:35:43 EST 1999
  
  Karthi, I think we are meeting at some middle-point, afterall:)
  
  I dont think Mukund meant to say that Raja's songs follow Jazz style. I think he evolved his own style. Which was to compose a tune which best reflected the situation(and if the situation involved a complex mixture of emotions, the tune reflected that potpourri of emotions), and interludes that reflect ,at every second , the mood of the situation on the screen. In my opinion, he stuck faithfully to this idiom , except if the movie itself was commercial crap like, say, sakala kala vallavan, where, too, it can be argued that he reflected the situations well enough! My argument for sakala kala vallavan will be that while it is designed to appeal to the baser emotions of a front-bencher, the movie is such that people like us should flinch..and the music achieved that quality quite perfectly!
  
  As for other songs like Azhagiya Kannae, the ball really lies in your court, Karthi. Because my contention is that Raja always came up with interludes that didnt digress from the situation on screen. So, it is impossible that I will find a single, solitary song that has interludes that digress! So, I cant provide examples to that effect! Remember, it is only after you pointed out that I realised if considered stand-alone , the interludes of azhagiya kannae could be considered digressing...so, if you would be kind enough to point out any other song that suffers from this 'malady', I would endeavour my best to justify those in light of their situation!
  
  
  "While it is continuous it does not lend itself to mingle with the main song - and this is the very reason for IR's interludes to have a kind of "Java" character. "
  
  I am not sure if I understand that properly , karthi. more explanation is needed for this TUBE-LIGHT(naan thaan!). What has Java got to do with continuity in interludes? Please do explain for the sake of this tubelight:).
  
  You have quoted very gracefully some great works of Raja. For later creations of Raja, that,IMO, pass the same test, I would quote:
  Karpoora Bommai Ondru, Anjali Anjali, Nalam Vazha,
  Alolangili thoppile, and even the recent katha pola thonum. I can quote more examples. But that is beside the point.
  And, my sincere suggestion would be , watch UdhiriPookkal, the earliest you get a chance to. I am sure, once you see the movie, you'll accept our argument to the last 'T'!
  
  
• From: bb (@ compq1.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Mon Feb 1 07:05:47 EST 1999
  
  i don't think that IR can be called as the best ever in TFM.
  film making is never static, but is quite dynamic. so is any art.. that the art is always time-bound is a bitter truth, whether we accept it or not.. in this case, it is difficult for us to judge with current perspectives about a long-standing sweeping statement like who is the best ever in TFM. what was agreed to be the best in one age, seems to be trivial in another.. what was considered to be music in one age is considered to be raw and unwholesome.. instruments change, tastes change and there can never be a conclusive end to the grooming of ideas and perspectives.
  this brings me to questioning the basic axioms of film making and music with which IR and other stalwarts like MSV are compared so blindly. the ability of music to provide a strong mood to the film is being touted as a major field where IR scores over MSV. does that make it better film making? in those times, say of MKT, would one even think of such uses of music? then, is it correct to blindly compare them across ages? that is definitely not true. i don't see how u can even compare ARR with his digital tracks and recording and the role of his music in films, to that of , say, papanasam sivan, just because they are both in TFM??
  compare this directly with the evolution of philosophical trends in europe and US over this century. we went from psychoanalysis to structuralism to existentialism to post-modernism. each was born in a specific time period, under a specific circumstance, and was used to explain life in a very specific manner. it is not even right to compare different trends in 20th century, leave alone comparing with ancient philosophies. similarly, at this point of time,one cannot claim that IR is the best ever in TFM. at its stage, MSV was the best, then IR, and then whoever comes after him. just by claiming a few facets of IR which are lacking in MSV's music diction and making a generalized statement, leads to sweeping away a lot of things under the carpet.
  after all, the concept of a film and its music might change so much .for eg, customized music, where the music is customized to the pattern of thinking and feeling of the listener, might come into vogue. or music through raw sounds and not instruments, might come into the picture. who knows?? a future TFM-DFer might claim IR to be a stupid MD because he didn't cater to the taste of an individual listener and didn't customize his music for each listener!! this might sound like sci-fi stuff, sure, but this is just to give an idea about the unpredictability of the future. please refrain from blind comparison like this.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Mon Feb 1 10:24:32 EST 1999
  
  karthi,
  With due respects to your musical acumen,I strongly disagree that most of IR's interludes are out of sync with the melody.It you can'nt give examples,then this thread becomes ambiguous and will be a futile exercise.
  To consider IR as the best ever in TFM is very subjective, as relative scales differ from individual.But to throw an accusation that IR's interludes are out of sync with melody is highly objectionable without proper elucidations.
  I do'nt have to prove the contrary but you might have to clarify your statement.I do find this psychological trend in anti-IR guys to hide behind MSV or ARR just for the heck of it or is it that, they just ca'nt face the truth.
  
  
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Mon Feb 1 14:14:25 EST 1999
  
  BB: Here's my rejoinder to some of your points
  1."The ability of music to provide a strong mood to the film is being touted as a major field where IR scores over MSV. does that make it better film making?"
  
  Yes, sir(or madam?), it does!
  
  I have had occasion to observe this before . I have no qualms doing it again. You must have heard of Satyajit Ray. Initially, he had *STALWARTS* like "Ustaad Amir Khan", "Bade Ghulam Ali Khan" score music for his first few films. But ,after two such films, he was forced to abandon them and take the baton himself. Do you know why? Because they failed to provide music that matched the sequence on screen. Instead, they insisted on Raga Alapanais for each sequence. Our man was flustered. They might have come up with great aalapanais.(Just an aside: Can ARR's kathals and kadharals in BGM qualify as aalaapanai?? ..JIJ(Just in Jest!))
  But his movie didn't benefit from proper bgm.
  So, he took up the baton himself and with his profound knowledge in both ICM and WCM, apart from Rabindra sangeet, was able to come up with scores that matched his movie. He is supposed to have remarked that he felt more satisified with his later movies like charulata because of this reason.
  While technical aspects like Recording quality and digital tracks cannot be emphasised as major comparison check-points(So, ARR, as you have rightly pointed out, can't be compared to Papanasam Sivan), the basic concept of Film-making doesn't change. So, we can certainly compare a Sridhar and a Manirathnam and try to compare their story-telling techniques and try to infer who was/is the better(IMO, Sridhar was!)-but you dont compare the visuals and say Manirathnam came up with better visuals..because that depended on the advances in technology in photography.
  
  I hope you understand this subtle difference.What I was trying to emphasise through my Satyajit Ray example is this:
  
  If, 40 years back, SR laid emphasis on BGM , certainly we can't say "Reflecting the mood of the situatuion of the movie" is a modern concept. It has always been in vogue. Only, TFM audience were not provided this aspect. They were not educated to expect this. IR did that. He educated the TFM audience to expect full justice in that department. Besides, he did full justice to other aspects of music-songs and tunes..and you-name-it -he-has-done-it.Which is why we claim he is the best in *TFM*.
  
  
  2".. just by claiming a few facets of IR which are lacking in MSV's music diction and making a generalized statement, leads to sweeping away a lot of things under the carpet. "
  
  No,we aren't sweeping anything under the carpet. It is the initiator of this thread who pleaded to discuss IR and Old-masters without making any reference to BGM, Matching the mood of the situation etc. Pray, who is sweeping things under the carpet:)
  Our claim is that Raja equalled the old masters in such conceptsd as "melodious tunes((Dont prompt me to come up with a list ,please..not again!), "Simple tunes", "complex tunes", "Interludes matching tunes", "when necessary, interludes diverging from tunes, unlike the olden days where interludes were just there for the sake of being",...what else do you want?
  In addition, he excelled in BGM and matching the mood of the movie.
  3."...a future TFM-DFer might claim IR to be a stupid MD because he didn't cater to the taste of an individual listener and didn't customize his music for each listener"
  
  I am sure you'll agree with me if I say that such a person, if at all he comes to exist, can be only either
  1)Daler Mehndi
  or
  2)His fan.
  Now, do we have to bother to explain to these guys why IR didnt cater to them ??:)
  
  
  Hence the proof.
  As for
  "Post-modernism", "Existentialism", "structuralism"...Vudu joot...naan ambel.
  Ippadi psycho-terms-la drown pannineenganna, eppadi reply pannaradhu, sir?(again,madam?). Well, I'll try to understannd those terms first and then thinking of replying to those points!
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Mon Feb 1 14:22:20 EST 1999
  
  I do find this psychological trend in anti-IR guys to hide behind MSV or ARR just for the heck of it or is it that, they just ca'nt face the truth.
  
  ---> So we dont bother about music - what the heck -- If raja sets a note or scale , one person has already placed his finger on that note - thats is MSV , I did not expect this from you. Saying MSV has done nothing is just crazy. BTW:Have you really heard MSV's work.
  
  This might apply to ARR, but it is too insulting to add MSV's name with ARR.
  
  

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