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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Mon Feb 1 00:52:27 EST 1999
  
  Karthi, i'll tell you what prevented IR from composing interludes that went with the main tune and yet reflects the main situation.
  See, our mind can experience different emotions. Happiness, sadness, anxiety , fear.
  When I am extremely happy, I prefer listenign to songs like " Rakkamma..", "Andhi mazhai megam", "Megam Karukkayile.." etc.
  When I am extremely sad , songs like "Ohpaapa laali" suit my mood.
  And so on..
  So, each emotion of us has a particular kind of music attached with it.
  So, the music that reflects happiness is different from the music that reflects anxiety, fear, pride etc.
  
  In azhagiya Kannae, the main pallavi has different shades to it. It is neither an extremely jolly song nor an extremely sad song.It has the right mix of happiness(reflecting ashwini's interaction with her sweet children), sadness(husbands tyranny), anxiety(for the childrens' future),AND helplessness(as she sees her children gaily prancing around, she cant help thinking how their future will be in the atmosphere they are cursed to grow in). I challenge you to deny that the tune for the pallavi, or the subsequent one for the charanams dont reflect any one of these emotions. One word describes the tune.Haunting.
  
  The interludes are a different story. Each interlude has a purpose. To reflect one particular emotion. That ,they do famously. I dont want to waste my time describing the whole song all agaiN. I would request you to go through my posting on the songin the "Songs discussion " thread to understand the purpose,import of the song.
  Naturally, if Raja sticks to the main tune in the interludes, he wont do justice to the one particular emotion which has to be conveyed in that particular interlude, because the main tune is like a summary..it has all shades of emotion. So, he had to depart from the main tune.
  Karthi, it may not conform to your requirements from a song(A stand-alone melody, matching interludes). But please don deny raja's greatness in conceiving song the way it has finally shaped into.With due respect to you, Raja understands the requirements of a movie and its director better.He has to do justice to the movie. The song is just the director's way of conveying a complex set of emotions easilywithout resorting to boring dialogues. To this end, he turned to Raja to help him by conveying the mood of the song through the music alone. Which Raja did perfectly. He was perfectly justified in digressing in the interludes. Let me tell you, if any MD were foolish enough to try to do justice to the song rather than the situation, he doesnt't deserve to be called a MD. If, as you claim, a MD had tried to stick to the main tune in the interludes also, he would have ended up miserably failing to convey the mood of the movie-situation.
  
  You have quoted "Sonnathu NeE thaaana.." and "Chittukuruvikkenna..' as examples of a MD STICKING TO MAIN TUNE AND STILL CONVEYING the mood of the song. But then, dear, the mood of those songs is UNIPOLAR. It doesnt change within the song only. But in Azhagiya Kannae, the mooD *CHANGES* between the three interludes. Hence, Raja 's intrerludes digressed. Comparing it to "Sonnathu..", IMO, is bad comparison.
  
  I hope you come up with a old-song in which the mood changes within a song and the MD has actually scored interludes that also change in accordance with this change in mood . Now, that would be proper comparison. If, OTOH,I can come up with a old song in which the mood of the song changes within the song but the MD has scored interludes that stick to the main tunebut fail miserably in conveying the diffferent moods of the song, will you agree that I would score a debating point, then?:)
  
  I strongly oppose your comparison of Java and IR's interludes. Will you bother to justify your claim?
  
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Mon Feb 1 01:47:49 EST 1999
  
  Karthi,
  As yousay that IR's music didnt impact you so you can't come up immediately with songs of IR that suffer from this anomaly, try this:
  I am unable to quote off-hand old songs that suffer from this anomaly, as I promised I would, for the same reason!
  
  I remember that while hearing many old songs, i have had this feeling that they were digressing. But , now, when I try to recall them, I am hopelessly lost because, non e of those songs impacted me enough to stay in my "Hard disk"!
  Since I am in Hyderabad, i ahve no way of immediately getting these songs, too. I'll try my best to ransack my memory and come up with those songs, though!
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sd-ppp-195.abac.net) on: Mon Feb 1 01:53:32 EST 1999
  
  Hi Karthi,
  
  I had read your earlier postings on "Azhaigiya Kanne" and I had not posted anyhitng then because I thought Shankar had given a good and complete reply to your points.
  
  But now I feel like saying some of my ideas here.
  
  This is what I feel regarding IR's interludes: The music in the background frees, liberates itself from the bonds of lyrics, singers, etc and flows and during every second of the interludes - one can realise spontaineity in every sense of the word. The beauty of these interludes are they are always a continuation of the background music that goes on when the singers are singing. To me it is the real expression of what Jazz symbolizes.To improvise. Beleive it or not I have so many times felt how wholesome and complete IR's songs are. In every song of IR I am able to get the complete connection between interludes and the song. To put it shortly, in IR's songs the words are there only to indicate the situation to listener and once a listener has identified himself with the situation the interludes come in and takes one thru the range of emotions associated with the situation.
  
  But many times I have also felt that a lot of non-IR songs have this complete lack of spontaineity and sound as if pieces were pieced together.
  
  But MSV's songs were always more spontaneous than even IR I feel. That I feel is because of songs being tuned to lyrics, instead of other way. But do I feel a sense of exhilaration, release and liberation in his songs as I feel in IR's songs - ?? NO. I dont know how many times I have told my wife when we were travelling in the car listening to songs - 'IR should free himself of all these lyrics stuff and should give intrumentals alone'
  
  Also as for the interludes during MSV period - they were there just for the sole purpose of connecting the stanzas. It was more like a chain connecting the stanzas together. And moreover there was not any expectation of the interludes breaking free of the song etc. He was more interested in giving conforming to the tune of the song - thereby maintaining the continuity if I can look at it from your point of your view. At this point I dont have any other words than to say what Shankar said - This alone will not be enough for a lot of listeners like me.
  
  Srikanth,
  
  By tune if you mean the hummable nature of the songs - certainly a lot of songs will not have a very well constructed tune. Certainly MSV's songs were anyday more hummable than a lot of IR's songs.
  
  But then that is just a way of listening. For example, taking "Aruna Girana deepam paba" from Malayalam movie Guru or if I should stick to TFM "Oru Naal" from Devadhai they don't rank great on the hummable part. But I guess that happens when the orchestration level increases. Like - trying to sing some melodic piece from WC music.
  
  Lotsa times my limitations in singing stop me from enjoying the song completely - but almost always can remember and feel most portions of the music in my mind. Guess that's why exhilaration comes in to the picture, I think
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Mon Feb 1 02:04:05 EST 1999
  
  Mukund,
  This is what I was trying to convey but couldnt shape in proper words. Naan pesa ninaithathellam..neenga pesittinga!(Srinath is fuming..I have lifted his words:))
  
  Well said,Mukund.Let's see what Karthi has to say...
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab6.theatrium.net) on: Mon Feb 1 06:10:48 EST 1999
  
  Mukund, Raj and Shankar!
  
  That's a wonderful perspective you have given: "The interludes escape the bounds of the song" - I had not thought of it exactly in this manner. May be this I think is the forte of IR which made him popular. This has certainly helped my views to become more accomodative.
  
  As I said before, he could do all these with lots of creativity and novelty and melody during his initial years when he brought new dimensions to his songs...wait...wait...I may be repetitive but please finish this through and then let your thoughts jump. In his later years his load was too exacting to stick to that consistency.
  
  I am used to singing in School and in College. There has never passed a day in my life when I haven't sung. I take it real serious and sing to my heart's content. When I do this I have to live and relive the tune and its intricacies again and again and again. This has been possible for me to do effortlessly and as you said spontaneously only with old songs. I could run the interludes in my mind and heart and why not, even sing the interludes to get to the other stanzas without a pinch of deliberation. These were the songs that came of ViswanAthan-RAmamoorthy duo, MSV and certain other composers. The interlude which links one stanza and the other tends to chain the song and gives it its completeness. If I encounter a break there then my flow is interrupted.
  
  IR's style may be that of Jazz or whatever (I have very little knowlege about all this as I have said many times before, my listening to music is solely intuitive) which as you all said may not fit into this realm. I find this as a deficiency in one point of view (You have said that lots of times you have not been able to enjoy the song completely given your limitations to singing - I am not to misconstrue this: Did you mean "your" limitations or the limitations posed by IR's songs because they are not as hummable?). Not to deny it was a new trend in TFM which shot IR to popularity. It might have made the jobs of so many directors easy because now they had the BGM of IR to convey the emotions, coupled with the interludes in songs to do it in addition. (Wait a minute, can you Raj come out with other such songs where different moods come into play? - I did read your and others' postings about 'Azhagiya KannE' and I remember well not to have opposed you guys after I read your justification. I thought then that I should see the movie to appreciate it better).
  
  As you have said, the BGM in an IR's song tends to continue through out the song. But that's what exactly I was going to say: While it is continuous it does not lend itself to mingle with the main song - and this is the very reason for IR's interludes to have a kind of "Java" character.
  
  What I can't understand is that while IR could do this effectively (as Shankar had pointed out by mentioning 2 classes of singers - one for tune and the other for interludes - to satisfy both) in his earlier movies and this is my opinion, why not in the later years? I cannot think of any better music of IR in the years I had mentioned earlier (approx. 83-92) other than those I had listed. I will only be happy if you could come up with more.
  
  I think the reason old songs are still lingering in memory is because of their immortal tunes. While IR ushered in a new trend, I feel proud to stay with my stance that Tune is the heart and blood of any song and it could live long even without any supporting interludes if it's composed in its entirety. To put it in our Tamil: RAAGAMDHAN ORU PAATTUKKU UYIR MOOCHU ADHU IRUNDHADHAAN MATHADHU ELLAME SOBHIKKA MUDIYUM.
  
  I tell you IR was at his best when he could judiciously mix the tune and his novel interludes which he did accomplish only during his initial years as I have many times repeated. I think his best ever melodies were those that came from his initial creations. Whatever he gave later while they may have become popular, certainly they are not resounding. As far as I am concerned, I would rate only those songs as best which I could compile and hear again and again and derive pleasure . This I could do only with that young IR who was budding as a musician with tons of creativity and new and fresh vigor!
  
  But I also should say the commercialization that seeped into TFM has helped a lot to this end. I mean deterioration.
  
  To quote some of IR's great works...
  I can enjoy "Kannan Oru Kai Kuzhandhai" any time. Well, you might say it fits category 1. What about "Germaniyin SendhEn MazhaiyE" and "Azhagu Aayiram"? The interludes were great and yet they were in tune, in sync and in keeping. How about "Adadada Maamara KiLiyE"? The opening music and the interludes are awesome in that song. Infact, somethimes I like this song even better than that all time novelty "En Kanmani Un Kadhali". Take the case of "En UlliL Engo", "Chinna Kannan AzhaikkirAn", "Vaa PonmayilE". Were they not great compositions? Some of my all time favourites are "Sendoorarpp PooveE", "ALLi Thandha Bhoomi", "SugamO Aayiram", "KaNmaniyE KAdhal Enbadhu", "Idhu Oru Pon Maalai Pozhudhu", "Edho Ninaivigal", "OrE NaaL Unai Naan". There are ofcourse many more from the same period of time.
  
  (As I have said earlier I cannot think of those IR's songs which had that cut and paste character for I just don't have them etched in my memory!).
  
  I am sure you will find my this explanation reasonably substantial though certain beliefs can never be altered given that they are mostly subjective.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab6.theatrium.net) on: Mon Feb 1 06:14:26 EST 1999
  
  Typo! 2 classes of listeners not singers!
  
  

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