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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.5.228) on: Sat Jun 16 06:02:31 EDT 2001
  
  OSIG, `poovinum melliya poongodi' is by Shankar-Ganesh! You chose a wrong example to glorify MSV:-(
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 64.172.24.67) on: Sat Jun 16 19:46:35 EDT 2001
  
  yes..I would agree with kk..IRs arrangements are very similar to MSV's. If I can hazard an opinion, I would say IR perfected the fusion that MSV was trying to do. I only wish somebody continued this genre (ICM+WCM) ..KR is the only one interested but he too is getting attraced to other idioms because of market considerations.
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Sun Jun 17 00:15:39 EDT 2001
  
  Good analysis Kiru !
  
  
• From: comment (@ 65.9.136.158) on: Sun Jun 17 02:01:01 EDT 2001
  
  would say IR perfected the fusion that MSV was trying to do...kashtam...
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Sun Jun 17 04:49:56 EDT 2001
  
  what says you comment ? elaborate pls
  
  
• From: kk (@ 205.188.200.213) on: Sun Jun 17 15:01:07 EDT 2001
  
  can anyone perfect what comment trying to say? :)
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 64.172.24.67) on: Sun Jun 17 19:52:54 EDT 2001
  
  comment..Yeah.I should not be talking when amatuers composers like you are around :) but then again I thought what I said was something that was obvious even to casual listeners. Correct me..if I am wrong..I will tolerate your sarcasm and impatience out of respect for your skill set.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 65.9.136.158) on: Sun Jun 17 21:22:56 EDT 2001
  
  kiru,
  ir perfected the fusion that msv was trying..
  
  to make such a statment you should have heard many many msv songs...simply I dont think so, you have to research more....if you have heard msv to an extent that you can comment, can you tell me something on tune structures of ir and msv.....
  
  you still owe me an explaniation for
  what is Pop "based" music.
  now add this
  what is fusion music?
  
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ 164.164.94.115) on: Mon Jun 18 00:48:09 EDT 2001
  
  MSV needs this much and more and more. :-(
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.53) on: Mon Jun 18 08:24:27 EDT 2001
  
  Yes ..Kiru...I also wanted to know your understanding and analyis of POP and fusion music...
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Mon Jun 18 15:22:15 EDT 2001
  
  comment: :-) pop based music, fusion music, all these things are like the "10 things ir did to tfm" :-))
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Mon Jun 18 15:31:27 EDT 2001
  
  hihi :)..., ...still people dont know 1 thing that other mds did..but they will comment 10 things negative....about them.
  
  Kiru vin badhil ...enge...we still dont know.
  :)
  
  btw: moods of irnu onga sitela ore promotion ena achu ? aduvum....subuddu benefit
  matachA...illai...other can also hearA?
  :)
  
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.159.71) on: Mon Jun 18 15:52:06 EDT 2001
  
  ask ir. as for me i had a chance to listen to on piece of the album :-) so it was hihi:-) benefit match :-))
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Mon Jun 18 16:04:19 EDT 2001
  
  hihi:):) so innum 50 years la people can read about it from your kumudham interview....:)
  
  
• From: Anu (@ 204.178.20.13) on: Mon Jun 18 16:24:54 EDT 2001
  
  comment: What I heard from one of IR's former instrumentalists (I don't want to mention his name) that IR is in financial troubles, needs money and so is busy doing movies.
  
  BTW, I'm surprised why all of you people look for fundaes in TFM - man its supposed to be light music catered to the masses. For fundaes, go listen to Tyagaraja or Mozart!
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Mon Jun 18 16:31:51 EDT 2001
  
  or IR or MSV or GR. everything is fundae sundae to us.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.211) on: Mon Jun 18 16:42:50 EDT 2001
  
  Comment: Could you please explain if you agree with kiru's statement or not, and either way, why so, instead of trying to find faults in his statement. To some extent, if you are more knowledgeable than kiru (or other DFers) then, I think, IMHO, you also have some responsibility to clearly express your point of disagreement. Otherwise some may come to your conclusion that you are merely quoting jargons to cloud the issues and your pre-conceived notions:-)
  
  It is a popular opinion that IR definitely took to a higher level, what MSV had done/started. This is NOT a slam against MSV who belonged to an earlier time period than IR.
  
  IR was aided by 1. a great predecessor in MSV 2. the advent of electronic music 3. Track recording 4. Formal Western Classical training and a few additional factors. Nobody in their right minds would question the talents of MSV, and nobody should question the talents of IR.
  
  For once and for all, let us, atleast the seasoned DFers, put behind us, this petty arguments and personal dissing about MSV/IR/ARR and genuinely try to analyse their talents. This does NOT mean that we accept everything they do. But atleast let us NOT criticize everything about them.
  
  
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Mon Jun 18 17:05:10 EDT 2001
  
  rajaG,
  
  Did IR perfect(to bring to perfection or completion) the fusion that MSV was trying to do?
  Does that mean the fusion cannot be improved further by anyone(including himself) and has reached its "everest"?
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Mon Jun 18 17:06:21 EDT 2001
  
  If he perfected the fusion is it possible to conclusively prove that it's perfect?
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Mon Jun 18 17:20:29 EDT 2001
  
  Trend: do you know infinity? perfection in any art form is like infinity. if you are confused, please read george gamow's excellent book "one two three ... infinity".
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.201) on: Mon Jun 18 17:21:16 EDT 2001
  
  Trend: First, I do not know any great detail in that area to answer that question. Second, even if I did know, it will still be only MY opinion. Third, how is it going to change your appreciation of any form of music.:-)
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Mon Jun 18 17:42:00 EDT 2001
  
  rajaG,
  
  "Third, how is it going to change your appreciation of any form of music.:-)"
  
  It's not going to change.I would have one more useful fact in my knowledge bank.-)
  
  
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Mon Jun 18 17:46:43 EDT 2001
  
  hihi:-),
  
  x/0=infinity where x is anything except 0.Ennai vitturunga.I have an American IQ in Math.
  
  
• From: hari (@ 216.141.67.251) on: Mon Jun 18 17:52:43 EDT 2001
  
  Fusion - my 2 cents... from what Ive listened of MSV and IR, I feel that -
  
  (1) The counterpoints in IR's songs are more elaborate. Now please dont pounce on me. I remember listening to some fantastic counterpoints in MSV(-TKR) songs too, but I get this feeling that IR puts more fundaes in the harmony in his melodies (as well as the interludes - in fact in carnatic songs like the kAnadA based "poomAlai vAngi vandhAn", the interludes are western classical)...
  whereas in the case of MSV(TKR), chords are more of an accompaniment, merging with the main melody. (though they are very stylish, yet not too many fundaes in the chords)
  
  (2) how to name it - was fusion. "..And we had a talk" clearly shows IR as a great fusion artist. If this is not fusion, then I dont know what is. I havent heard any MSV composition attempting this kind of "blatant" fusion.
  
  Which brings us to the question - What exactly is fusion? I guess u can call it as a simultaneous "seamless" incorporation of 2 different styles of music (WCM, Carnatic, Hindustani, folk (?), pop (?), rock, what else?)in a single composition.
  
  I wud say "kavidhai kELungaL" is not fusion. (it is just a tour thru various styles) whereas, "poonkadahvE" is. I am sorry, but my knowledge of MDs other than IR is more limited than my knowledge of IRs music (which itself is pretty limited) Just trying to provoke an interesting discussion and get some good postings.
  
  
• From: comment. (@ 65.9.136.158) on: Mon Jun 18 18:41:13 EDT 2001
  
  rajag, basically, this is the one of the jargons from kiru, like pop based music, imho, we cannot define pop music or fusion music, it is a very general term, it cannot be made perfect by anyone., . As far as music is concerned, there is nothing called 100% perfection,
  it is very subjective, It is a popular opinion in india that ARR is the best in all forms of music today, do u agree...it is very very subjective.
  
  
  first of all how much w.classical did msv work with , or how much fusion did msv do, we need to know all this before making a generalized startment that ir perfected fusion that was started by...msv, imho;which is totally incorrect
  
  
  some may come to your conclusion that you are merely quoting jargons to cloud the issues and your pre-conceived notions
  
  why someone , you have already come to that conclusion, kiru is more seasond here, he has already used pop based music and other jargons, which he has not explained till date, what is it all about,... I just asked him how much msv you have heard thats all,regardless of music knowlede.
  
  ...just for questioning some ones general statement- if i am right, this is the second time my so called music talent is made joke by you, i take it seriously if it is from you, if you think i am just bluffing etc, let it remain. nothing is going to change me.
  kiru still owes what is this so called pop based music arr works with, what is the fusion music that ir improved from msv?...prove with some musical samples, if you say you are not music illerate...then i am perfectly right on questioning this comparision.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.207) on: Mon Jun 18 19:09:28 EDT 2001
  
  Comment: Please don't get upset. Having known you and your music personally, do you think I would be using your posts in this forum to judge your knowledge? Atleast give me more credit than that. Don't you think suggesting the pieces in which MSV/TKR had performed fusion, pop, jazz, etc. etc. from your perspective is a better way to start the discussion? There could be the following type of responses to your suggested list
  
  1. You could open the eyes of many forumers, like me, who have not heard MSV as much as you have.
  2. Some of us could also learn about those various forms of music - more so from examples which are closer to home and our hearts.
  3. Naturally, some of your views may be questioned - but isn't that how we all learn?
  
  Kiru may have triggered off the jargons this time. But you, me, Swamiji, Kiru, aruL.......have all been culprits of this act at some point or other. I sincerely believe that we have a responsibility to explain the jargons when we use them. I also sincerely believe that meaningful discussions can continue meaningfully ONLY if the participants give tangible reasons and examples of their view points. Otherwise, it is going to be the typical kuzhaayadi sandai of ARR vs. IR vs. MSV vs. SAR. OK the last one was a bad typo!:-)
  
  I am really curious to know more about MSV's jazz, rock, pop,.......efforts. I know for a fact that Udhaya, SL and you know and talk about these - definitely more than what I know in this area. Why not educate other forumers too? Please take my remark in the positive intent it was meant.
  
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ 164.164.94.115) on: Tue Jun 19 02:54:44 EDT 2001
  
  In this thread, the discussion is already deviating too much. Now people pulled IR also in to the discussion. If you find, any defects with MSV's musical capabilities, please post that. To find that, you should have listened his music very much. If you haven't listened his music in wide range, please keep shut. Assumptions need not be correct. People who listens the music only one particular MD, please don't post anything about others. You can tell only about your favorite MD.
  
  

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