Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.
Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?
Regards,
Anand
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Sashi ( not the reviewer ) (@ sj-netcache.cadence.com)
on: Wed Apr 12 04:19:20 EDT 2000
Sorry I don't remember the exact words..
But the lines
Nenju Dhikku Dhikku dhikkundhu..Oh Oh Oh
Uyir .... Oh Oh Oh
... Oh Oh Oh
resemble a few lines from the Runa Laila ( Bangladeshi singer ) song Dhama dham mast kalandar
-Sashi ( not the reviewer:-))
- From: S (@ netcache31.mot.com)
on: Wed Apr 12 04:57:22 EDT 2000
Sashi,
r u referring to "varAha nadhikkarai Oram" ???
- From: S (@ netcache31.mot.com)
on: Wed Apr 12 04:58:17 EDT 2000
it shud be "varAga" and not "varAha" :-))
whose brilliant idea was to put 'h' near 'g' :-(
- From: suren (@ spider-we041.proxy.aol.com)
on: Wed Apr 12 09:06:16 EDT 2000
Not surprised to find Kallelam Manicka Kallaguma in a hindi film called "Pukhar" by our ARR, but the similarity ends in the pallavi itself, It seems.But more more surprised to find the absolute example of inspiration in the saranams!Well guys listen to the song.It`s straight from Inji Iduppazhaga IMHO. Who said that ARR doesn`t listen to contemporary MD`s anymore. Inspiration...
- From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com)
on: Wed Apr 12 10:17:58 EDT 2000
Dama dum mast kalandhar is a 'sindhi' song made popular by Runa laila. It is basically a Mohana/KalyaNi fast paced song in Double keharwa. Are there parts which are similar to Varaga nadhikkarai Oram - Yes. But I am not sure if that is enough to call it a copy. I will go to the extent of calling it an inspiration. My definition of 'inspiration' being using a phrase/section of an existing song but then adding one's own talents and skills on the song so that the listener, while being reminded of the original also feels that there are many areas which are quite different.
Using this definition, I will say IR has virtually no copies, but maybe some inspired songs.
- From: ECHO (@ hobbiton.org)
on: Wed Apr 12 13:37:42 EDT 2000
If Deva does its copy, when ARR does it is inspiration. UNFAIR!
Ok, u need to be inspired for every song?
- From: chandy (@ ws025038.coba.siu.edu)
on: Wed Apr 12 15:46:54 EDT 2000
suren,
ARR's "suntha hain" in Pukar which you are referring to has some resemblance with "venillave venillave" (minsaara kanavu) in the sense that the starting portions of both the songs sound a bit similar. But it cannot be called a "copy". Also, i dont find any semblence between suntha hain and inji idupazhaga...
- From: someone (@ host2.cvs.aa.net)
on: Wed Apr 12 17:53:21 EDT 2000
Echo is known to repeat things without thinking.
since it cannot think .... Echo has started copying. what next echo will do not one knows, goes around headless every place..poor echo....
- From: Neel (@ ts001d26.har-ct.concentric.net)
on: Wed Apr 12 21:49:30 EDT 2000
I have never heard of any other MD be accused of copying like ARR is being accused. I am talking about the magnitude of accusation. Is it really a problem or is it just that a lot of people are totally biased against ARR?
- From: Srinath (@ 63-217-90-105.sdsl.cais.net)
on: Thu Apr 13 00:03:42 EDT 2000
A lot of people are totally biased against ARR.
- From: Sathish (@ test-icn-t1.icn.state.ia.us)
on: Thu Apr 13 01:21:33 EDT 2000
Lets leave like this .
IR and ARR are the (best too)two legends in the Indian film industry right now .
How is it ?
Kris
- From: Shankar iyer (@ 202.9.162.170)
on: Thu Apr 13 10:12:02 EDT 2000
Hey anand!! ARR is good, but don't compare
with IR. Who said ARR's songs are 99% hits?
Can you hear songs in kadalan,jeans,Minsara kanavu
(except vennilave) even mudalvan after two
years. His azhagana ratchachi is in raga
kethara gawali and you can't hear it in
melody mood. Maniratnam become famous only
of IR(mouna ragam,thalapathi,idhaya tamarai,
agni natchatiram). Bharathiraja is out
because of poor village based music by ARR.
are you ever heared IRR's metti,neengal
kettavai
- From: chandy (@ ws025038.coba.siu.edu)
on: Thu Apr 13 10:33:51 EDT 2000
Shankar Iyer, By your same logic, can you claim that 99% of IR's songs have been hits (by whatever definition of "hit") ?
- From: S (@ netcache32.mot.com)
on: Thu Apr 13 11:16:58 EDT 2000
chandy,
suntha hai mEra kudah sounds more like kallellAm mANicka kal AgumA...
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Thu Apr 13 11:45:43 EDT 2000
Chandy
the charanam(stanza) of Suntha hai sounds like the
charanam of Inji Idippalaga.
- From: Lakshmi Ramanathan (@ 203.197.229.5)
on: Fri Apr 14 11:01:35 EDT 2000
Kadhalan, Jeans, Minsara Kanavu etc. one can hear again and again even after years. They are masterpieces.
L.R.
- From: Athi (@ netcache32.mot.com)
on: Fri Apr 14 13:50:46 EDT 2000
LR,
Thanks for making me have a hearty laugh.
May be a few people listen to them again
and again but that doesn't certainly make
them masterpieces.
May be it means for those movies, ARR
made extra efforts (!) to recycle ideas
from other masterpiece compositions(internationally famous) and used
digital sound recording which will impress
all the (un) biased music lovers to make
them conclude that ARR is the best (when
it comes to recycling ofcourse !).
Athi
- From: ECHO (@ hobbiton.org)
on: Fri Apr 14 14:20:37 EDT 2000
Master pieces have to be from Silver Jubilee films??
- From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net)
on: Fri Apr 14 14:21:20 EDT 2000
Athi,
it might not be Master piece,things will change to you if we subsitue raja's name instead of arr,
because you listen music just for the name raja and not for the beauty in music.,
Music is made up of just 7 notes...but as per logic of recycling there can be very limted number of songs in the world,
Please Grow up,
- From: ECHO (@ hobbiton.org)
on: Fri Apr 14 14:46:39 EDT 2000
So srikanth u mean what u have done (ur album) also this of category? :)
Music is of 7 notes (12 to be precise), but u can make wonders... English have just 26 letters, u can do lot with out repeating. ARR composes/compiles nice music, no doubt about it, but it should be 100% of his creativity, this is not like jingles where u can make money using others hard work. U've "grown" more, thats y couldnt see what happens near the foot.
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri Apr 14 14:58:22 EDT 2000
Novices copy note-sequences. It is called
imitation.
Masters copy
styles. It is called inspiration.
Why the second is valued? TO do the first, you
dont have to understand the meaning of the
music. For the second, you must go deeper and
relate to its elements, grasp why and
how it works, and recreate it in a totally
new context. If you can do that you can
create ideas for any new situation.
Finally, all masters begin as novices.
;)
- From: KC (@ usilesi1.cai.com)
on: Fri Apr 14 15:00:55 EDT 2000
Things will change in India if only we have provision for Intellectual Property Rights. Then we will see who is really talented. Then we will have music free of plagiarism and copy cats (whoever it's) will stop acting as though they were geniuses.
- From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com)
on: Fri Apr 14 15:05:37 EDT 2000
In painting, students are advised to
copy the masters for a long time, before
they attempt their own.
I think it takes a while for one's original
ideas to begin flourishing. I am sure Raja
would have learnt by copying, before his
originality began to emerge. We should remember
that his first movie release was when he was
30+. I guess that before that, he should have
done 'learning by imitation' for at least
10 years. In his first few years he has
re-used note sequences. Manjal nilavukku has
a Bach interlude (note-fore-note flute piece).
His Maaman voodu is a replay of Rara venu
gopala with just the dappanguththu accompaniment.
Later, composers learn how to take a note sequence
and tranform it in such a way that a lay listener
will deny the similarity. For example,
Sriranga ranga natharin is a variation of
Suprabhatham. Another striking song I found
was 'Poomalai vaangi vanthan pookalillaiyae'
It is very similar to Alai payuthae kanna,
no not the first line. Start from Anupallavi:
Anandamohana venu ganamadhil alai payuthae:
Poo malai vaangi vandhan pookal illaiyae:
Do you call these copies?
- From: haris. (@ inet-fw2-o.oracle.com)
on: Fri Apr 14 15:40:57 EDT 2000
not poomalai..
but sriranga-ranga is close to obvious that he took it from suprabatham..
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