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IR vs ARR - Who is the best user of piano

Topic started by Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on Tue Feb 12 14:19:24 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hello Everyone,
I keep hearing in Sun TV interviews, Sabthaswarangal etc that ARR is the best pianist around. But I feel that IR is miles ahead of ARR in composing using Piano. Some great examples are as below

En Vaanille Ore Vennilla (Johny) - Esp the starting bits

Malai En Vedthanai Kuttuthadi (Sethu) - The starting bit.

Nee Partha Parvaikuru Nanri (Hey Ram)

On the other hand I can provide some examples of ARR's use of piano too.

1. Thendralee Thendralee (Kadhal Desam)- Starting bits, interludes (just brilliant)
2. Vennillave Vennilave (2nd interlude)

But I feel IR's compositions of Piano is too creative and not repetative. Any opinions?.

I would like you all to bring some more IR's use of piano and compare it with ARR's with due respect to both of their works.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.36.39) on: Thu Feb 14 07:52:13 EST 2002
  
  the reason I put smart is the lead is played in left hand and counter is played in right hand,
  usually in most songs it is other way round
  the lead is played in right and left either counters in the bass clef or plays a chord.
  
  msv's "musical emphasis" or "ornamentation" in songs are very interesting. Every one does it including IR, ARR. a big topic we can discuss if someone is interested.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Thu Feb 14 10:00:53 EST 2002
  
  Srikanth,
  
  i guess many, including me are interested...please use the same thread for that.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Thu Feb 14 10:11:41 EST 2002
  
  btw the prelude of the song neela vaana odayil neendhuginRa vennila also has some good piano playing, am i right?
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Thu Feb 14 15:18:24 EST 2002
  
  Some more (ARR) that havent been mentioned:
  
  1.Mehndi hai rachnewali 2nd interlude (Zubeidaa), good piano with dholak picking up at the end
  2.Thirakkatha (ESK) 1st interlude
  3.1947 earth piano theme.
  4.En veetu thotathill (gentle man) ist interlude, piano (may be from keyboard) sets up the stage for veena.
  5.Ithu thaan kaadhal enbadha (Pudhiya mugam). Listen to the outro of the song. Its an variation of the first interlude with flute and piano (from keyboard may be) supporting the veena.
  6. Azhage sugama (PP), esp the outro, good conversation with the violin.
  7. A slight (very minimal use) in Anbay (rhythm) intro.
  
  
  
  
• From: dhans (@ 12.22.60.1) on: Thu Feb 14 18:05:32 EST 2002
  
  off late, in Shajahan, i think in the song melliname melliname, the Piano is used wonderfully. It was brief, but very efective and haunting.
  
  Dhanush
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Feb 14 18:24:01 EST 2002
  
  hi srikanth and the other dhAdhAs :-). most often i find that IR sticks to three part counterpoints - a good example, the string section in the second interlude of sangIdha mEgham thEn sindhum nEram. can you please point out any four or more voice counterpoints by either rAjA or others in TFM? thanks.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.36.39) on: Thu Feb 14 20:02:21 EST 2002
  
  hihi, etho theriyadaha mathri nalla act kudukareenga, ellam neram than -:)
  
  
• From: Mr. Observer (@ 64.105.35.27) on: Thu Feb 14 21:57:17 EST 2002
  
  hihi:), in 'thamthanana namthana' in 'puthiya vArpugaL', a great composition, the female chorus parts give the impression of atleast 4 counterpoints in progress and those combined with Jency's / Sasirekha's singing would be more than 5 in number. But.....no!!! wait a minute !!!! that was actually the case of are the chorus artistes and Jency/Sasirekha singing off-key :))
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Fri Feb 15 14:18:52 EST 2002
  
  Guys..two days back I was reading an article on Chopin' etudes by Douglas Hofstader (who seems to be a fav with music dudes here). Man..just by looking at the notation you can see a fantastic symmetry/pattern in the music. It seems Chopin was fan of Bach (his fav refrain to his students, was 'always play Bach). Also, the music seems to be written almost with a mathematical approach ..Chopin himself refers to it 'as a exercise in form' (when he was 19 !!!). This is my next WCM CD to be in my purchase list.
  
  
• From: Vicky (@ 12.89.148.64) on: Fri Feb 15 16:41:54 EST 2002
  
  I would categorize the use of piano by IR (an orthodox stick to to the notes ) and ARR (as a neo-classical/new age)genre. IR's composition notes do have influence of Bach/Chopin/Schubert and on the string side a little of Bizet/Dvorak.(rememeber..abc nee vasi ellame in kairasi), that was lifted from Georges Bizet's L'Arlesienne Suite 1-Carillon, the last movement. IR had a wide grasp of western classical music techniques. Some of my favorites include Uravugal Thodar kathai Unarvugal Sirukathai (Aval Appadithan), En Vaanilae (Jhonny) and Vandhade (Kizhaku Vaasal)..oh..sorry that could also be chracterized as a Waltz movement at the end. On the other hand ARR is a new age musician who does'nt bind himself by the influences of Classicla music. He sounds to me like Deuter, Mark Hunton, Steve Roach or any other Windham Hill musicians. His scores have been a little ambient sound with digital sythezizers with a little acid jazzy tinge to it.
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on: Fri Feb 15 16:46:39 EST 2002
  
  Kiru and Hari,
  I listened to Kangal Enge (Karnan) 3 times after reading your postings. I see some orchestration faults in the songs. For e.g.,
  
  Right after the First Pallavi and the begining of the first interlude I see some breaks in the chord progression. I do not know if it was intentional but it does not sound right to my ears. I am no expert in playing/composing music but as a average listener it sounds somewhat odd. May be experts like you can throw in your comments and observations.
  
  I have noticed this in many MSV/TKR songs. They some time kind of struggle to get a smooth orchestration/progression and it is quite obvious in many songs. The same is true in early IR's compositions between I would say 1977-1980. E.g., the song Thenmali Poove (Sivaji's Movie) the interludes do not have smooth progressions. But then on, he has matured in his orchestration and his orchestration has been seamless.
  
  I do not see the same thing with MSV/TKR till date.
  
  
• From: truth (@ 128.194.171.99) on: Fri Feb 15 17:45:34 EST 2002
  
  http://www.tamilpoonga.com/songs/song/nonstopmoresongs.ram track no.21
  
  hi
  people ...
  i came across a song in this website...its speelbinding...i think its by IR ..could you let me know which film that song belongs to.
  i still cnat believe how could i miss this song??
  stunned
  truth
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Fri Feb 15 17:52:00 EST 2002
  
  iLaiyavan.
  
  
• From: hari (@ 66.68.100.51) on: Sat Feb 16 00:33:08 EST 2002
  
  
  Dorai,
  
  yeah, the interlude in that song does not sound too smooth to me either, its not really one of my favs,... for that matter, i dont find myself really liking too may of MSV's interludes.
  
  I was talking abt the prelude earlier.. if u listen on dhool. ..... first, devika's dad says some things ... then some music and then suseela goes, kaNgaL yengE... nenjamum yengE pallavi bit twice. Following that is the bit between pallavi and anupallavi (kAlgaL yengE, neLiyum ingE)... thats the bit I was bowled over by.
  
  
• From: Ramakrishna (@ 209.179.251.212) on: Sat Feb 16 02:47:02 EST 2002
  
  Hari,
  
  do you know what is the instrument that is between the two "kangal yenge" pallavis at the beginning that sounds like coins falling on the floor? It was in a lot of songs in yesteryears (like at the beginning of "malare Kuruni malare"). You never hear this in todays music.
  
  Also, what is the instrument that sounds like a soft bells at the beginning with a bit of tremolo? Probably a jaltarang? Another old song with the same insrument throughout is "Or aayiram paarvayile". This has a very soft jazz ambience (much softer than kettledrums).
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.4.227) on: Sat Feb 16 04:33:04 EST 2002
  
  No posting on the opening instrument of `oru thanga radhathil' yet?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.36.39) on: Sat Feb 16 08:17:24 EST 2002
  
  Dorai, "breaks in the chord progression"
  "kind of struggle to get a smooth orchestration/progression "
  -- what do you mean by this?
  since you say dont know any techincal aspect. This can be a recording issue, it was a single track recording, it is hard to distinguish 15-30 instruments on single track, and this same single track carries audio. Even expert struggle to notate msv/tkr songs due to this reason.
  
  please dont talk like an expert and safely say you not an expert. For many we feel your ear is guessing it wrong, it does not mean music is incorrect.
  
  Hari had a valid point, yes msv/tkr places harmonies for carnatic brigas also. This is something you dont find in IR.
  
  We are seriously discussing some good points only on a musician, we dont hate ir or msv or arr we see best in them.
  
  Dorai, please say you like IR and only ir. period we get your point. Ir orchestration is seemsless no doubt about it, that does not give a free ticket for you say orchestration done by msv/tkr is incorrect or poor. Every musician had their good day and bad day at work.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.36.39) on: Sat Feb 16 08:26:40 EST 2002
  
  vicky that was really good points.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.36.39) on: Sat Feb 16 08:36:01 EST 2002
  
  vicky,
  who does'nt bind himself by the influences of Classical music. You have told the major difference between others and IR, if we understand this well, we can enjoy all musicians.
  
  in "ennai talata varuvayo" saranams first 2 lines have an excellet counters using piano (sound)
  this is perfect example of the IR way. by far superior counters i have heard in recent past.
  
  Guruvayure appa opening piano part a good finger execrcise of new piano players.
  
  did any one check sangeetha megam ?
  
  
  
• From: hari (@ 66.68.100.51) on: Sat Feb 16 11:06:00 EST 2002
  
  
  Ramakrishna - might be sitar. Ill listen later and see if I can recognize (btw, I am not an expert either :-))))
  
  Sangeetha megam - yeah this kind of counters Ive seen in most IR songs. (ascending/descending notes leading to the next line - trying to make it seamless) Particularly towards the end of anupallavi - yenRum vizhAve yen vAzhvilE - there piano generally goes full speed across the scale.
  
  Srikanth - yennai thAlAtta charanam counter - isnt it some wind instrument (picolo?) on a keyboard rather than a piano? ( I hope I understood what counter is - it is counterpoint melody between 2 lyrical lines rt?)
  
  on july mAdham, I agree, fantastic song for piano. One thing I really like abt this song is also the change in chords in the last pallavi (9th?) It is my opinion that this is Raaja style a bit - introduce some sort of chromaticism in last pallavi like O Butterfly or raaja raaja chOzhan etc.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.36.39) on: Sat Feb 16 11:54:48 EST 2002
  
  hari, i think there is "mallet" kind of timbere in that, it sounds like a piano to me.
  hope we are discussing the same part.
  
  chromaticism is nice theory, it has been used by many mds much before ir. We need to belive Music is an evolution so everyone has delt chromaticism in their own way.
  
  if you hear the viswanathan vellai vendum song from kathalika neramillai, saranam part -
  "rathri nerathail raskshasan pol varuven"
  there is violin section counter point over this part, which is in absolute chormatic scaling,
  you need to hear this very carefully, it is heard better in the video version of the song.
  Many old songs have this idea often goes unnoticed.
  
  

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