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IR vs ARR - Who is the best user of piano

Topic started by Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on Tue Feb 12 14:19:24 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hello Everyone,
I keep hearing in Sun TV interviews, Sabthaswarangal etc that ARR is the best pianist around. But I feel that IR is miles ahead of ARR in composing using Piano. Some great examples are as below

En Vaanille Ore Vennilla (Johny) - Esp the starting bits

Malai En Vedthanai Kuttuthadi (Sethu) - The starting bit.

Nee Partha Parvaikuru Nanri (Hey Ram)

On the other hand I can provide some examples of ARR's use of piano too.

1. Thendralee Thendralee (Kadhal Desam)- Starting bits, interludes (just brilliant)
2. Vennillave Vennilave (2nd interlude)

But I feel IR's compositions of Piano is too creative and not repetative. Any opinions?.

I would like you all to bring some more IR's use of piano and compare it with ARR's with due respect to both of their works.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Wed Feb 13 13:18:35 EST 2002
  
  MS, are u the guy who sang Srikanths song Kadhal paadhai?
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Feb 13 14:00:57 EST 2002
  
  It is not fair to compare a guru with this sishyan. But lets do this for pure academic reasons. IMHO, if MSV's work is Version 1.0 IR's is Version 2.0 etc. i.e. MSV laid out the structure, techniques (especially for integrating other genres into our music). In the initial years IR's orchestration was very similar to MSV's. It differed only in the melody (less classical sounding, more light). If MSV was from the rock-n-roll era, IR belonged to the rock era. So he brought in much more rhythmic compositions. In terms of orchestration, his usage of WCM techniques got more finer and sophisticated. And I think because of his tune-first approach and its prolificity, MSV was left behind.
  I can elaborate more on what I said in detail if there is interest.
  
  Re: balance. I think MSV was just handicapped by technology. Both MSV and IR were doing music in a genre called 'film music'. This cannot be compared with ARR. His idiom is totally different and so his mixing style cannot be compared, IMO.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Wed Feb 13 15:28:22 EST 2002
  
  Sorry for the slip about PBS.
  
  Sam, yes.
  
  dorai:
  
  No. I do agree MSV did not have a formal education like IR had. But his musical interludes are pretty damn complicated suppressed only by the recording problems.
  
  
• From: hari (@ 66.68.100.51) on: Wed Feb 13 17:14:38 EST 2002
  
  Couldnt help mentioning this.. wanted to for a long time, here goes.
  
  IMHO,
  fusion of east & west => idea of harmony + carnatic gamakas => basically what the trio of MSV, IR and ARR did/are doing.
  
  It is tempting to say IR took this to a higher level than MSV/TKR. But this long-held opinion of mine is slowly changing. Ill cite 3 examples.
  
  1. MSV/TKR - kaNgaL engE (karnan) prelude
  2. IR - I met Bach.. (I think) - where 2 violins are "playing" with each other 9HTNI)
  3. Guitar Prasanna - guitar canon in dharamavathi/charukesi (u can listen to it in his website guitarprasanna.com)
  
  1. Both tracks - bass and soprano (or alto?) are playing carnatic, and there is harmony
  2. Only one track is playing carnatic at a time (the other is plain.. it is very carefully written)
  3. Somewhere between these two. (More like 2)
  
  So it seems MSV/TKR (whoever did that arrangement) did something superior to what IR or ARR did (as far as I know). I couldnt find this sort of unique fusion in any other MSV song that i listened to, or for that matter, any other song(maybe Srikanth or someone can help me if he thinks what I am talking abt is sensible) Any thoughts?
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.92.36) on: Wed Feb 13 19:10:54 EST 2002
  
  kiru: I rather think that they are different software packages rather than versions of the same code. aren't their styles really different as opposed to mere evolved versions of the same genre with their contemporary influences thrown in?
  "I can elaborate more on what I said in detail if there is interest."
  Of course there is. it is really good when knowledgeable people participate. we are all ears. please elaborate.
  
  
• From: Selva (@ 202.9.67.104) on: Wed Feb 13 19:57:45 EST 2002
  
  I think many times IR is not using Piano as it should be used...the music may be melodious but piano is used in wrong way...say if u beat piano on the wooden top and make nice drums beats do u say its nice piano music...this is exaggerated example....IR's piano ...be it 'thenmadhurai' , 'hey ram' and many are used that way.....only in one song i remember he used piano as it should be used and that is
  "MAALA EN" of sethu ...which is brilliant !!
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Feb 13 21:19:44 EST 2002
  
  In one interview of vijayabhaskar, I remember reading he went to meet some white guy who was in the film industry and the first thing he told him was that he has to learn the concepts of harmony - so I think from the very beginning, it was very clear that film music has to bring in harmony (from the WCM school). And I think, film music as a genre, is one thing, just like the Indian National Congress that the white man can take the credit for starting it. Having said that - let me reiterate the 'harmony' layers got more sophisticated, fine grained with IR. But MSV was using many WCM techniques even before IR (including counterpoints). He also was responsible for bringing unique arrangements in the pallavi and transitioned that to the indian instruments in the charanams (somebody correct me if I am wrong). He also was responsible for maintaining rhythm with strings and using that moved the song to a percussionless interludes. These are things that IR just followed.
  WRTo the example given by Hari, eg #2 is basically interwining of Bach's Violin Partita III and IR's own notes in between. According to IR, he wanted to bring out the rAgam in Bach's piece. To elaborate on harmony, IR, made it a point to write a bass line even for melodies. This is a much more 'correlated' harmony than string backing or piano fills.
  When it comes to gamakams MSV or even ARR might be better but I think the idiom of MSV or IR is melody(rAgam)+thalam+harmony. Re: kangal engE - I do think IR has done many songs like this.
  
  (BTW, if it is not clear I disagree with Dorai).
  
  sO - yes, I think, IR's music is a version of MSV's. I think the above examples should help.
  
  Selva, are you saying that IR is using piano without the harmony (just like a keyboard) ?.
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Wed Feb 13 21:45:10 EST 2002
  
  "bass line even for melodies",
  
  cud u elaborate on that for me kiru? I wanted to know the bass in raja's compositions for a long time.
  
  thanks
  Sam.
  
  
• From: AVR (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Wed Feb 13 23:25:17 EST 2002
  
  MS - thanks for that.
  
  Some good use of piano by ARR is found in the Hindi songs of Taal, and also in the background music of the film.
  
  Guys, this discussion is so interesting and I have really enjoyed all the posts here by kiru,hari, MS.
  
  Many thanks,
  AVR
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.4.27) on: Thu Feb 14 00:10:50 EST 2002
  
  oru pAmarathanamAna kELvi...
  
  What's the the opening instrument used in the prelude of `oru thangaradhathil, pon manjal nilavu' (the one that plays the very tune)? This was very widely used by IR during a period (in almost every song) and is extremely sweet sounding...is it it a electrical `variant' of piano? It's used even in the first interlude of the same song with `veeNai sounding guitar' as counter point...
  
  
• From: hari (@ 66.68.100.51) on: Thu Feb 14 01:29:01 EST 2002
  
  
  kiru - i understand ur posting. But can u give me examples of any other songs like kaNgaL engE prelude : basically harmony with 2 melodic lines both playing carnatic gamakams ? I havent heard it, or rather my ears havent picked it up. IR almost always seems to prefer "plain" harmonizing of carnatic melodic line. I met Bach in my house - bass and soprano alternate very carefully between carnatic and "plain".
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 64.166.84.252) on: Thu Feb 14 03:06:43 EST 2002
  
  Okay ..this is for Sam - listen to #16 in
  http://raajangahm.com/guitarprasanna/favo_songs.html - the preludem the pallavi and specifically the interlude..IR himself sing the folkish 'thanthana' with the bass guitar backing him. To me this is like tight rope walking but he seems to do this so effortlessly. You can also listen to #13. That is why I think you should not take IRs tune alone separately..You have listen to the complete song..it is like splitting the treble/bass notes of a piano and commenting on them separately. You will notice the recording is also not that bad. Very many songs were done this way ..including seemingly 'carnatic' pieces.
  
  Hari, MSV has done counterpoints. It is quite possible he experimented with two indian melodies. I have not noticed this with IR (note I have been listening to music seriously only recently).
  
  Re: "bass and soprano alternate very carefully between carnatic and "plain"." Yes it just alternates..but it is not 'plain', they are Bach's own notes...only the carnatic parts were written by IR. The CD notes clearly mention this.
  
  (I dont know why Selva thinks nee pArtha parvaikku is not good piano playing..I dont have that keen an ear but I can hear enough treble and bass notes ..this song is harmonically very rich )
  
  I really miss Srinath who can talk bass much more intelligently than my amatuerish descriptions. Naveen would be the right guy to talk about piano playing. They both can explain stuff clearly too. Actually, I started becoming aware of the bass line (consciously) only because of Srinath's writings here.
  
  Enjoy the music, (Sam, BTW, listen to all the songs in that URL if possible)
  
  
  
• From: ashok (@ 203.197.138.34) on: Thu Feb 14 03:55:54 EST 2002
  
  guys,
  i am also a severe fan of raja.. to my best knowledge IR has crossed the borders in using pianos...especially if you cud listen to the foll.songs
  
  1. Chinna pura ondru (opening BGM)
  2. Engirundho ilankuyilin (brahma opening BGM)
  these are some nice pieces.
  one more crown to the cap is the re=recording in Mouna Ragam film.. simply astonishing.. i don't know why you guys compare this genius with ARR in terms of piano playing and all. In fact, i have heard SPB saying in a programme, " that raja is the best harmonium/piano player i have ever seen"
  
  
• From: o (@ 64.105.35.119) on: Thu Feb 14 04:48:34 EST 2002
  
  Please do not forget the prelude of 'enna enna vArththaigaLO'.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.36.39) on: Thu Feb 14 07:37:11 EST 2002
  
  for ir,
  Do a careful hearing for sangeethmegam from udhaya geetham, piano couters each line in pallavi. especially when songs move to anu pallavi "nalai en ....:" lines, the piano counters the song very well, the entire octave of sindubhairavi notes are played as counter points
  piano is often better in the counters than leads for IR.
  
  in then madurai vaigai nathi, we can see interesting set of notes, the preludes goes in pairs, like hi-lo formation. something like it decends a lo-A high-A , low-g high-g and so on, i often give this has finger exercise to my students.
  
  Best piano part by arr is in july madam vandal second bgm. another point to note in this song is the bass lines, it clearly matches the piano part.
  I happen to see arr play this, It was really amazing the way he played. Later that day someone in the studio told me that spb just paused singing and started to praise arr on this piano part.
  
  in vennilave vennilave, the second bgm has a piano part,. which is also well done.
  
  in old songs, there is msv/mgr song,
  "padinor padinal ada thondrum", the piano opening is really smart and very good. Rajavin paravai opening piano part worth a discussion.
  old songs have many nice piano parts.
  
  

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