Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com)
on: Mon Aug 30 18:00:39 EDT 1999
MS, AruL, BB,
Just shoot me. InimEla indha Forum la naa Edhaavadhu intelligent aa post paNNaa, yEm budhdhiya pinja cheruppaala adiyungO please.
Anand,
You continue. neenga thaan enna romba correct aa purinjindirukkeenga:-) BTW, Glad to know that you don't care about how you reach your chitrinbam. Honestly think that it is too much information about you.
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Mon Aug 30 18:02:21 EDT 1999
mr. k,
thanks for the reply. my take on all the sorts of durais is: ignore. cho rAmaswamy said the same thing about the mighty indhirA gAndhi. by replying (pro or anti, doesn't matter), you give credibility to those postings. if another cult member replied, let them all live in their own ignorant heaven; let's all have a good laugh in the background.as NOV put it, the best treatment for all those are ignoring them.
- From: Kooththan (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.redbrick.com)
on: Mon Aug 30 19:47:34 EDT 1999
THis is best thread in forum. Seriously. Good coverage of topics. Serious, thanks RajaG.All about ARR,IR,MSV,KVM,KVM's first national award,about Thaalam miss in "Chaiyya",about listening to music and finally now Vamana Shastra (with some touch of Osho).What about other tantras in Atharvana Veda?;-)
- From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com)
on: Mon Aug 30 20:03:00 EDT 1999
Rajasir, Mr.K Sonnathu how perfect!.. at times Mr.K posts something interesting.
By the way pass the slippers to me, I need it badly.
- From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112)
on: Mon Aug 30 23:05:52 EDT 1999
I presume that there is no race here to slap oneself with his own hands with slippers :-).
rajaG:
I do not understand why you must not post intelligently here. They are logical and seem to appeal. My only contention was that the general declarations like "sevidan kaadhil oodhiya sangu" are not expected from seasoned Dfers (or any gentlemen, rather :-)). Mr.K says he meant no offence and I think we can drop that there.
Anand Mahadevan, sari thaan vEra examplEy kidaikkaliyaa sir ? :-)
- From: Srinath (@ 98cf6772.ipt.aol.com)
on: Mon Aug 30 23:11:43 EDT 1999
Is everybody onto some sado-masochistic ride in this thread ? :-) Beating yourself with chappals, torn ones at that ;-)
rajaG, you really need to take a closer look at some of Mr.K's gems in the other threads before giving any credence to his posts :-) - otherwise, your interpretation only takes away credit from your own excellent posts !
Srikanth, before you post anymore, I would like to summarize the "10 new things by IR" that you have listed so far -
1...
2...
3...
4...
5...
6...
7...
8...
9...
10...
Hope I didn't leave anything out ! Thanks for your wonderful analysis ! :-)
Where SPB is concerned, his career would have been far less spectacular if not for an Ilayaraja. No, his talents were in no way enhanced because of IR. But he wouldn't have had a showcase to display them. Instead, he would be singing "Maanga, Maanga, rendu maanga" or screaming "Thagara thamarai magale"...oh ! wasn't it "Thanga thamarai magale" ?!!! Once in a bluemoon he might have sung a "Kadhal Rojave". Same goes for SJ too ! Bhava, on the other hand, might have been a trifle less lucky ;-)
Due to Srikanth's onslaught, IR fans here have been pushed on the back-foot and are unnecessarily defending dappanguththu, forgetting virtually everything else that IR has done. Anand, orgasm is not the only thing that matters in a relationship. Dappanguththu is more an instinctive, primitive form of expression (remember, if primitive could make it pure, it could also make it unrefined). IMNSHO, classical music is far more involving and articulate than dappanguththu or hip-hop or jungle music - none of which are inferior, per se - but definitely over-rated here. Elitism ? Be common if you want, guys, but I'd rather be special, thanks :-)
Now, bringing IR into the picture - MSV may have a handful of dappanguththu's to his credit along with a bazillion other melodies. But what Srikanth claims as disadvantage to MSV - lack of reference - was actually an advantage. He had the freedom to work on a raga and/or its derivatives and come up with a tune that 99 times out of a 100 was melodious. Now this is not to take away any credit from him - wait, what the heck ! it is with the very intention of taking away credit from MSV ;-) - MSV was not restricted, in the sense that he could compose all he wanted and not be accused of plagiarism ! IR on the other hand had to compose music that would sound good and yet not sound like MSV's. Pretty similar to what ARR is doing now. Only difference is that ARR's efforts show thru' pathetically. IR is a better musician than either MSV or ARR simply because he knows more about music than either of them ! Proof ? It lies in the works of these two and a half greats :-) MSV obviously didn't have enough knowledge of WCM to use it as well or as extensively as IR did. Nor did he have sufficient knowledge of folk music to implement it as aptly as IR did. IR on the other hand might not have had as much to do with Carnatic music, but still passed with flying colours when it came to composing classical or semi-classical music in a very serious sense. Now, I am slowly beginning to understand why MSV fans also like ARR, but in a way totally different from what Shashi perceives. Shashi, I so totally disagreed with your views on this, that I could not have posted anything more than a simple "No" in response to your post earlier on in this thread :-) rajaG, though you have not claimed anything explicity in your post, it beautifully stresses the significance of classical music. That is precisely where IR excelled. He took it far beyond the means of a commoner (our DEVA, for example). To make melodies like MSV might be impossible. To record like ARR might take a genius. But to be an IR takes a man - an absolute in his profession. There is none here, not even you rajaG :-), who can match wits with IR where music is concerned. IR bridged that impassable chasm between creator and producer. MSV does not hold claim to that, nor does ARR. This is not a 99.94 Test avg. Nor is it 23 ODI 100s. In fact, I cannot even think of a comparision in any other field where one has done so much, inspite of knowing so much. If MSV amazes me with his melodies and if ARR overawes me with his recording techniques, IR does nothing more than elicit a simple respect from me - a respect that shall not belong to any other single entity in this world - living, dead, or undead :-) Treat IR a little less callously guys - if only for the fact that today there is another MSV (a lesser one, nevertheless :-)) in the form of ARR. But I am preparing to live the rest of my life (hopefully, a long one :-)) with the bitter-sweet thought that there is never going to be another IR.
- From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu)
on: Tue Aug 31 00:38:50 EDT 1999
srinAth,
romba uNarchchi vasap padAthInga :-)). if i may take the liberty of summarizing what you have said in your posting: [:-)]
(1) I
(2) L
(3) A
(4) Y
(5) A
(6) R
(7) A
(8) A
(9) J
(10)A
:-) couldn't resist :-)))
(as far as i understand, msv did have references, but i wouldn't use such arguments to steal his greatness away from him!)
- From: rajaG (@ ip108.kansas-city3.mo.pub-ip.psi.net)
on: Tue Aug 31 00:41:53 EDT 1999
Srinath,
Thanks for an insightful post. I may not agree with everything you say, and definitely strongly disagree with placing a 'naacheez' like me (No that is NOT nachos in Hindi) in the same ref(v)erence with IR. abachaaram!! abachaaram!!nee modhalla Rex Oda site kku pOyi, 35 paattu kettuttu vaa.
MS,
naa cheruppadi kEttadhu, after reading Anand's misinterpretation of my post. oru virakthi, avvaLavuthaan.
- From: rajaG (@ ip108.kansas-city3.mo.pub-ip.psi.net)
on: Tue Aug 31 00:46:03 EDT 1999
aruL,
ippO thaan paarththEn. ILAYARAAJA va oru Acronym aa maaththidunga - You will be ready to kick butt in Corporate America.
- From: Srikanth (@ proxy1-external.moline1.il.home.com)
on: Tue Aug 31 07:50:28 EDT 1999
Srinath :
"But to be an IR takes a man - an absolute in his profession. There is none here " You have been saying this from the day 1 here, I agree your love towards IR, Say something new,
Basically you have told IR is better, he has great knowlege,. Spb grew bcos of raja , a statement in poor taste. Rajava mela thuka you have pull down every other artist you know. --- make it clear 10 points to prove what IR has done to new to TFM instead of cursing other musicians.
"MSV obviously didn't have enough knowledge of WCM to use it as well or as extensively as IR did"
Theriyadha penatakudathu... So if you know WC are you considered great. What a crazy claim.
- From: Li Li Lo Lo (@ nat135022.ericy.com)
on: Tue Aug 31 10:12:15 EDT 1999
WCM therinja ridiculous.
Carnatic thriyalena ridiculous.
dapanguthhu ketta ridiculous.
Naradhare, neenga kodda edhuvum pudusa panalla.
- From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228)
on: Tue Aug 31 10:22:58 EDT 1999
Srikanth :
We are all eagerly looking fwd to your "10-things IR did" list!! Seems everyone else here doesnt know what they are talking about, why dont you educate the fellow DFers and enlighten them on the few(just 10) things IR did or didnt!!
chandy
- From: Ilango (@ 199.102.39.65)
on: Tue Aug 31 10:25:15 EDT 1999
Srikanth! Do you know the meaning of cursing? I would dearly love to give you a few choice examples, but do not want to offend others on this forum. Your response to Srinath's posting is so pathetic, it really made me see red. Actually I took a few minutes off before writing this since I wanted to calm down a little. I have been reading this thread with interest, and more and more I get the feeling that you have a personal grudge against IRaja. And going on and on and on about the 10 new things IRaja did is getting on my nerves. Let me ask you point blank. Can you give me your ranking among the 3 Tamil music composers based on their work so far. Here's my list:
1. IRaja
2. MSV
3. ARR
Sorry for the outburst, but man, you really got me with your comments. Another thing. You said (I assume in all seriousness) that IRaja's voice suits only Janakaraj. Have you heard the songs from En Raasavin Manasile? Raja sings for Raj Kiran.
Ilango
- From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com)
on: Tue Aug 31 11:15:41 EDT 1999
I guess my reference to orgasm seems to have been misunderstood here.My point was that the ultimate listener's satisafaction is the main criteria.The path one take to reach it might be different but the bottomline is the oneness with the creation and the ability to relate with the composers thought process.
The superiority complex which the carnatic world carries is despicable to say the least.Whats wrong in enjoying a dappanguthu after all its created with the same 12 notes.It evokes a different mood in us.
"Vanadhal Mahalaskhmi" from Uyarntha Ullam is set to "Kalyani(I guess)" and we have some wonderfull carnatic gems in kalyani but that does'nt stop me from appreciating the former,eventhough it might have been a semi-dappanguthu.
I guess this is a major digression from this thread and would like to get this thread back on wheels.
RajaG, hopefully you got my point.
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