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COPYING - IN TAMIL FILM HISTORY

Topic started by s.senthilkumar (@ 203.197.154.163) on Mon Jan 24 07:23:36 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

i think "copying" is there for a long time in tamil film history.Here we discuss the tamil songs copied from others.

For a compilation of copied/inspired songs: http://copied.newtfmpage.com

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Tue Mar 12 07:20:15 EST 2002
  
  On second thoughts, can I call it a coincidence? 'cos in the Braveheart bagpipe piece the similarity lasts for about 3 - 4 seconds...thats when i think we're getting absurdly deep into this inspiration business - I think I should shut my site for a month and start afresh :-)
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ 12.239.160.236) on: Tue Mar 12 11:32:14 EST 2002
  
  Karthik:
  From Rahman himself....
  
  Would you say that you are expensive?
  
  ARR:
  I don't think so. On an average, a song recording works out much cheaper in my case than it does in Bombay. I think it's four times cheaper here.
  
  
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Let me ask you, have you heard any music you've liked recently?
  
  ARR:
  (Thinks hard) The soundtrack of the Mel Gibson movie, Braveheart
  
  
  I got the above interview snippet by searching http://rahmanonline.com/ for braveheart. If you want to see the full interview. Please do the search for yourself. I could not provide a hyperlink.
  
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ 199.67.138.20) on: Tue Mar 12 11:40:04 EST 2002
  
  Karthik
  IR used the violin piece of the song mella mella ( valkhai) also in the song neela kuyile unnodu naan ( magudi). I dont remember whether it is in the prelude or interludes.
  
  Thanks
  e.hari
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Mar 12 18:04:31 EST 2002
  
  vijay. I was talking about the Ray Lynch song. I do not see similarity between BTExpress and ennadi meenakshi (maybe I do not have a musical ear). BTW, Antonio Ruiz-Pipo is no ordinary guy. Do a search on the web for yourself.
  NaNbaN, it looks like 'jumbalaka' is a standard beat that ARR has used in the song (because all these songs seems to have a common feel to the rhythm). Still it looks like that the rhythm is very similar to the one in 'Dream' ARR seems to have used a bass guitar and a different drum for this, than the one in the original.
  
  
• From: isaiosai (@ 165.122.128.173) on: Tue Mar 12 18:19:54 EST 2002
  
  prabhu das,
  link for Bedazzled : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000050889/qid=1015975435/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-7819730-9071900
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Tue Mar 12 19:08:52 EST 2002
  
  "BTW, Antonio Ruiz-Pipo is no ordinary guy. Do a search on the web for yourself.
  "
  
  Kiru, I understand that, the point that I was trying to make was it was definitely possible for IR to get access to all those songs even back then(in 78 or 79), which was your doubt in the first place
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Tue Mar 12 19:24:18 EST 2002
  
  Karthik, since you have added the "kanavu kaanum" song in the list of inspirations you can also include "enna desamo idhu enna desamo" from Un kannil neer vazhinthaal, which is inspired heavily from Lata's "na koi umang hai" from Kati Patang
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Mar 12 20:16:42 EST 2002
  
  vijay..I didnt mean to be rude when I said "search on the web for yourself". NOM. Another point, I want to make is we need to look at the working style/genre of a composer as well while looking for inspiration/copy.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.203.216) on: Tue Mar 12 20:59:56 EST 2002
  
  kiru, no offense taken at all :-)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.203.216) on: Tue Mar 12 21:22:31 EST 2002
  
  OK here we go Kiru and Karthik, a final try :-)
  
  http://disco-roots.v21net.co.uk/funk/btex_satisfied.rm
  
  the above link is a better version..listen to the portion between 4.00 and 4.10..the guitar strums out the EXACT notes of "ennadi meenakshi" first line and its prelude..if this is not clear enough, nothing else would be :-) also the trumpet plays out the same notes between 5.00 and 5.05, it is very clear
  
  and if you listen carefully enough, the same notes get repeated earlier also in the song between 2.38 and 3.00
  
  
• From: AV (@ 12.234.170.75) on: Tue Mar 12 21:49:45 EST 2002
  
  Prabhu Das,
  
  Beddazled came after ESK.
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Tue Mar 12 22:01:32 EST 2002
  
  Actually I feel it is also similar to "another one bites the dust" by Queen.
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Wed Mar 13 02:04:36 EST 2002
  
  Vijay,
  
  I can sense 'ennadi meenakshi' with a slightly different ending in the clip u posted last. But its way too small or insignificant to even call it a coincidence!
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.203.216) on: Wed Mar 13 02:17:29 EST 2002
  
  Karthik S, if you can include "chittu kuruvi vetkapaduthu" in your list, this song damn well qualifies too:-) in fact in that Dvorak original only the notes of "chittukuruvi" appear fleetingly..but you can hear the prelude for the song "ennadi meenakshi" (played in trumpet in the tamil version) as well as the notes for the opening line in the pallavi..IMO, its definitely an inspiration, because thats all a spark a composer like IR needs to create a song :-)I am surprised that you dont feel the same way
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Wed Mar 13 04:18:51 EST 2002
  
  calling chittukkuruvi an inspiration from Dvorak itself was too farfetched. I have not listened to what vijay has put here regarding ennadi meenakshi and if it 'qualifies' in the same category of chittukkuruvi, well..u know how good a copy it can be.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Wed Mar 13 04:20:02 EST 2002
  
  and another important point is that the dvorak's portion was in major notes and chittukkuruvi in minor.
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Wed Mar 13 04:31:58 EST 2002
  
  Major or minor, I think one can clearly make out 'chittu kuruvi vekka paduthu' in the Dvorak piece. And add to it IR's love for WCM, IMO its an inspiration. The final decision will be based on whether one is a IR fan or a ARR fan. A Yanni fan friend of mine didnt see the Roja-pudhu vellai mazhai crescendo in Yanni's 'Quiet Man'. I did. A non-Yanni friend also did. So did many others. Many others also accepted the Ray Lynch connection in the Vaazhkai number! I found the Braveheart connection in Mudhalvan, absurd. After that excerpt from the ARR interview I think there is a strong chance of ARR being inspired...though there is no direct inspiration in the tune per se...but yes, its there!
  
  NaNbaN:
  That interview really makes sense. It sure looks like ARR has infact derived inspiration from Braveheart, however small or insignificant it might be.
  
  
  
  Also, such cases of inspiration (however small they might be) and discussions around it are not in India alone. I added a song by R D Burman today in my site (the song 'kaahe apnon ko' a bhajan from raampur ka laxman) which derives inspiration from the viol line in Romanze in the Lt. Kije suite by Sergei Prokofiev. Looks like R D Burman is not the only one to use that...Sting has used it exactly in his song Russians (album: dream of the blue turtles).
  
  Also, a message board for Prokofiev's lists quite a few other such inspirations from Prokofiev and also discusses lifts by western film composers like James Horner, John Williams and Hans Zimmer!
  
  http://www.prokofiev.org/forum/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=5&Topic=22
  
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Wed Mar 13 10:47:50 EST 2002
  
  KS, MS is right..the notes of "chittu kuruvi" are not EXACTLY similar to that in the original..only the meter is the exact same, its a catchy sandham inspiration ..whereas in the clip that I posted you can clearly hear the notes for "ennadi meenakshi sonnathu ennachu" with "naachu" bearing a slightly different note ...the meter is also the same, in fact the words "till you're satisfied" is actually the same as "ennadi meenakshi" itself and it gets repeated again and again in the song
  
  "The final decision will be based on whether one is a IR fan or a ARR fan"
  
  it shouldnt be that way KS, it should be independednt of whose fan one is..I am an IR fan myself and while I think Dvorak inspiration is a little far-fetched I dont "till you're satisfied" is :-)
  
  "And add to it IR's love for WCM, IMO its an inspiration"
  
  IR has also been inspired by pop (kann malargalin azhaipidhazh from "money money" etc.), piano compositions, folk songs etc. etc.
  
  anyways my final take is, this clip is more than just a case of coincidence, if you dont think so, we'll just have to agree to disagree :-)
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Wed Mar 13 11:41:26 EST 2002
  
  I think mella mella and celestial pop have a clear resemblence.. I wouldnt discount it being a coincidence but i wouldnt discount it being an inspiration either.
  
  
• From: Aswathama (@ 204.160.32.13) on: Wed Mar 13 12:12:39 EST 2002
  
  ARR copied the drum beats from "Ek Ladki Ko Dekha" from 1942 - A Love story for his Thenali song "Swasame Swasame" song.
  
  Original:
  http://www.raaga.com/channels/hindi/moviedetail.asp?mid=H000001
  
  Copy:
  http://www.raaga.com/channels/tamil/moviedetail.asp?mid=T0000270
  
  
• From: vazipokan (@ 208.51.40.107) on: Wed Mar 13 12:24:41 EST 2002
  
  I heard this in billy joel's recent interview to a tv channel called ovation,
  The "second guessing" of music should stop.
  I have stopped second guessing when i heard similar tune of uptown girl in am old celtics song. I know to my heart i did notcopy it, there had been a composer in past who can think just like me., this 7 note combitation is too small in long run.
  
  Dvorak inspiration
  without knowing music concepts we cannot conclude anything on copying. If you do so, this "musical 2nd guessing" will become very subjective and biassed. This will lead to Music becoming a crime exhibit and listeners becomeg Sherlockhomes
  
  
• From: Jeera (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Wed Mar 13 12:40:50 EST 2002
  
  I listened to all the evidence that vijay has given.
  
  For a very common listener like me, I could detect no inspiration or copying here.
  
  Yes, the start of Ennadi mennakchi and that bit that vijay has (4:00 to 4:10 or 5:00 to 5:05) does sound close (but not close enough for me).
  
  I guess the only way I could figured it out was to force ennadi Meenakchi into the bit, then it did seem to fit albiet a bit offkey. But while listening ordinarily I could not detect any similarities. I doubt if this is even an Inspiration.
  
  I guess what vazipokan say is true. It looks more like 'second guessing'.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Wed Mar 13 15:01:30 EST 2002
  
  Major or minor, I think one can clearly make out 'chittu kuruvi vekka paduthu' in the Dvorak piece. And add to it IR's love for WCM, IMO its an inspiration. The final decision will be based on whether one is a IR fan or a ARR fan.
  
  No it does not. KS, I am not belittling your efforts at any point, but just advocating that we be a little lenient before we call even something an inspiration. You have exposed here some wonderful copies and have done a great job. kudos !
  
  The meter of chittukkuruvi is something we can find very commonly in bharathanatayam. And if Bharathanatyam is older than Dvorak, can we call Dvorak's piece as one inspired from bharatanatyam ? I would discard some as coincidences and some as trite stuffs which every TDH can churn out. That is the only reason I said, instead of hanging around 2 or 3 notes and branding something as inpiration/copy we should rather dismiss some as coincidental happenings.
  
  Before u pulled this thread up and infused new blood, a lot of copies were reported by others too and I had my humble share. One such song is the modified mallu verison of "aasai adhigam vechchu". When u listen to the mallu song u can find what a deft copying job the mallu MD had done. I am sure u can come up with much more numbers which are more blatant than some which dont seem to fit the pattern even after repeated listenings.
  
  

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