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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Suresh (@ bowerbird.qut.edu.au) on: Thu Feb 4 23:52:17 EST 1999
  
  Hi Srikkanth:
  
  As I'm ignorant of the finer aspects of music, I can't but help asking you, was MSV the 1st person in the world to use the song structure you've mentioned pallavi-1st bgm-saranam..etc.?
  Again, if he did do so, why do you give it so much importance? Isn't this something like saying that X was the 1st director who actually started a movie with titles, had an interval during half-time, followed by 2nd part of the movie, and finally the climax; so X is the best film director ahead of the Kurosawa's & Ray's?
  
  MSV would still have had some frames of reference, much like IR had MSV, GKV, & WC masters etc. I find it hard to accept that MSV operated in a vaccum when TFM field was barren of anything.
  
  I still can't understand your constant harping of the paths IR had that MSV never had.. By that logic, maybe you can say MSV was an innovator, even inventive, but does he reserve life-time monopoly over its use?
  
  Innum konjam naanga ungalai verupethina,
  violin was discovered by Y, so IR's work with the violin was too easy to create,
  appadinnu ellam bash pannuveenga polirukkudhe? :))
  
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on: Fri Feb 5 01:49:20 EST 1999
  
  Come On Suresh and Raja!
  
  Neenga ellArumE, I mean IR lovers ellArumE main-aa orE oru pointaidhAn pidichikkittu irukkeenga:
  
  That IR's BGM was great and that he used WC to the core.
  
  WC use paradhAlayE IR great-aayida mudiyuma? Paattunnu eduthukkitta TFM-la IR enna pudhumai senjuttaar? Sindhu Bhairavila oru paattu muzhukka 'AarOganathula' pOttadhum (idhu ethanai periya saadhanai-nnu solla enakku isai nyaanam paththaadhu), western classical music-ai than music-la kondu vandhadhum thavira? "KaNmaNi AnbOdu Kaadhalan" from Guna was a milestone I agree. (But adhulayum, naduvula kamal-kku bathilaa vEra yaaraiyaavadhu paada alladhu pEsa vechirundhaa that song would have done even better - digressing? sorry!).
  
  I am in favour of the trend IR introduced in TFM. In that way, I can whole-heartedly call him a "Trend Setter"!
  
  Oru paattukku WC bgm-um, interludes-mE irundhutta ethanai naalaikkudhaan kekka mudiyum? Oru pudhumai vEndaam? Different Raagangalai try panninaarA unga IR? Has he experimented with any raaga? Enakku therinju IR music-la romba varushangaLa orE dhwani, orE thaalam, repeated interludesdhaan vandhukittu irukku!
  
  Just merely answering Srikanth's postings will not do any justice Raj. It looks like you only want to refute us point by point losing the whole picture. And I also see that in all the points you just ignore MSV which only shows your blind faith to IR. Here are my answers:
  
  1. Unga IR-aal oru "Sirippil Undaagum RaagathilE" thara mudiyuma? Illai adhukku equivalent-aadhaan oru songai neenga solla mudiyuma?
  
  2. "Andha NaaL Nyaabagam" -la enna dialogues mattumaa irukku paattukku naduvula, andha paattOda pudhumaiE "dialogues"-aiyE oru "PAttAga" koduthadhudhaan. aAna unga argument enakku puriyudhu, unga IR paadalgal paladhu verum dialogues maadhiri irukkumpOdhu neenga enna pannuveenga!
  
  3. "Chippi Irukkudhu Muthum Irukkudhu" - Is it a swaram song? What do you mean by that? KannadhAsanum, Director-um mattum irundhuttaa pOdhumaa? "Sandham" yaaru sir tharuvaanga? Indha paattaai verum swaram-nu sollitteenga! (idhOda Hindi version kEttu enakku tharkolai pannikkalAm pOla irundhadhu vera vishayam: Andha padathukku IR music-nu sonnA nambuveengala? Namba koodadhu. Enna IR illa (you're saved!) vera yaarOdhaan music:)). It's a novelty for which all the three take the credit, I mean, KD, KB and MSV.
  
  4. "Kadavul Amaithu Vaitha Medai" - Unmaiya sonna enakku indha paattai kEkka porumai irukkaadhu. aAnaa adhukku neenga sonna "mimicry" kaaranamillai, adhOda neeLam kaaranam. Now coming to the song, it was a composition as demanded by the situation. But adhOda beauty ennannaa, mimicry-ai kooda raagamaa maathi MSV-yaaladhaan kodukka mudiyum!
  
  5. "Junior" - Enna Raj? Koncham kooda nyaayam illaama indha paattai "kaathal"-kkum "kadharal"-kum compare panreenga? Thappa eduthukka vEndaam Ungalukku "romba' chinnadoondu manasu, adhula "thukkuliyoondu" rasanai appadeennudhaan sollath hOnudhu. (no offense intended, I only chide you friendly).
  
  (You can skip this para to continue with my points. Idhellaam (last song-um indha song-um, adhukku mundhina song-um MSV-kku KB-yaala kidaicha chances. Even if IR had got a similar chance he would have done well or may be better. But that's hypothetical to consider here. I say this because, you should not say but for KB, MSV enga idhellaam panni irukka pOrar? KB-kku (and lot of other old doyans) oru MSV kidaichamaadhiri, creative-aa anubavichu tune pOda unga IR-kku Edhu nEram? He was just churning mostly life-less numbers once he became very popular! I doubt if anybody (excepting Kamalahaasan, Mahendran - ofcourse, Mahendran, Balumahendra ellam sarithiram padaichadhu, not with this new IR, that old IR whose music used to be good and great once upon a time!) existed who had good relations with IR. But I'm not saying this as a reason here to belittle his genius - just to bring out certain facts.)
  
  6. Ippavum solrEn pala dharam solliyirukkEn: TFM or for that matter Indian Film Music-ai porutha varaikkum, paadalgaL oru padathukku mukkiyamaana amsam. BGM illaadha padangal illavE illai for that matter. Makkalai paravalaa chendru adaiyaradhu paadalgaLdhaan. BGM can only add more emotions to the scenes in a movie or sometimes (most of the times as you would say in the case of IR) convey the entire feeling. But naa kEkkarEn, oru padathOda BGM-ai cassette la record seidhu kEppeengaLa? BGM PADHATHODA MUDIYARA SANGATHI. SONGS APPADI ILLA. Songs are what we live with. They are the very reason we know each other now. Appadi irukkum pOdhu, "Ever lasting melodies" ai kondu mattumE 'The best MD' -yai nirnayikkalaamnu solrEn.
  
  Soozhnilai romba mukkiyam oru MD-yudaiya different facets muzhu vEgathula veLippadaradhukku. In days of MSV, ethanai access Sir irundhadhu veLi ulagathukku? AdhukkE avanga ethanai amarkaLamaa saadhichu irukkaanga? They have explored and experimented to the core within their limits and purview. AvangalOda variety of compositions-E adhukku saatchi. (IR-Oda oru songlayE variety irundhadhunaalayO ennavO seekkiram aluthupp pOchu!). MSV-ku compare pannumpOdhu IR athanai explore and experiment pannalainnudhaan theriyudhu.
  
  IR got quickly entrenched in a typical way of composing songs only to take away the novelty from them and introduce boredom into them! Novelty-ya vidingu atleast inimai irundhudhaa?
  
  'Udhirip Pookkal' maadhiri IR kalakkina padangal vera ennallaam irukku? In terms of BGM and interludes (according to you that is). Oru pattiyal pOdungalEn paarppOm? (I know there's a long list coming up but please choose only the best!).
  
  7. Another point worth mentioning: IR never strived hard to bring out the best from the singers. He utterly lost in getting them to modulate according to the actors, he also failed to choose the right singer for a song, and he also bears the brunt to let music swallow the lyrics or the voices of the singers.
  
  Oru dozen songs vechu MSV-yai immortal aakkida mudiyum. Unga IR songs-la oru dozen kodungalEn? (1 dozen edhukku 1-E pOdhumnu neenga ellAm anga kookkuralidaradhu enakku inga nallaa kEkkudhu!)
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Suresh (@ bellbird.qut.edu.au) on: Fri Feb 5 05:50:17 EST 1999
  
  Karthi
  
  OK, let's not consider the BGM as any great consequence to a film, as you so fervently wish!
  But, can't we use your own logic to ask that just because MSV handled Carnatic music better (as you think), does it make him superior? As you guys constantly harp on "paths" and "references" that MSV lacked, will you guys ever concede that there were MDs in TFM before MSV, and that there were several titans who've used Carnatic music as a base for TFM? Or, are you going to say that MSV was the first to attempt "fusion" of carnatic music in TFM?
  
  The point about IR's use of WC was that he was the first to innovate its use in TFM, and for a rustic from Pannaipuram to attempt it that early in his career & achieve such success is a remarkable effort. I know you guys will never like to concede an iota of credit to him, but has anyone meshed folk & classical (western & indian) with as much success as he did? Wasn't it a greater achievement that he introduced WC in TFM when it was a near-alien concept, than Carnatic which had always been a base for TFM? Anyway, since you flog MSVs Carnatic use to death, does MSV have bigger pure-Carnatic based hits like IR did for Sindhu Bhairavi or Salangai Oli? It might not have been as "complex" as MSVs use of raagas or whatever, but didn't the public recieve them better? I hope you'll concede that your argument that KB was just a facilitator will hold good here as well.
  
  As much as you allege IR for being monotonous, MSV can be accused of it much more. I agree MSV was a titan of his times, nobody's trying to take away from his acheivements as a Mellisai Mannar, but I(we) will always maintain that as much as he was
  great, he falls short of IR's achievements in TFM.
  Well, it's a purely relative judgement, so we'll keep arguing about it till eternity, I guess:)
  Again, you guys label anyone on IR's side with generous tags such as "blind faith" etc., just so you can credit us with as much intelligence and taste as the average rajini fan. While you guys argue from the lofty pedestals of objectivity!
  Now, for a point-by-point rebuttal a la Raj!
  
  1) Why does IR need to give a song like "sippi irukkudhu" to prove his greatness? did you imply that he needed to be deva-ish and attempt a similar one? Just throwing up a song is not a good argument, IR and MSV had totally diff. styles. For instance, can I ask you if MSV could ever have given a "thendral vandhu" or a "pani vizhum malarvanam" or a "ninnu kori varnam"?
  2. To say that IR songs sound like dialogues is a ridiculous statement, not to mention your "chinnoondu manasu" and "thukkuliyoondu rasanai":)
  3. your point 3 has been addressed in 1
  4. If turning mimicry into a raaga was such a great deal, IR has done much more than "kadavul amaithu"
  5. can't see the big deal in "Junior" anyway, I think you guys should atleast try to do justice to MSV by coming out with his better songs:)
  6. I'll skip the KB-argument. NO MD other than IR has constantly provided great music for below-par movies/crew, I can reel of countless Mohan/ R.Rajan films as example. Creative-a anubavichu music - well, I have a recent example of Guru - that will show you what creativity and "anubavam" is all about.
  
  Well, even though the personal equation is irrelevant in this case, you guys just keep throwing it as a last-ditch attempt to belittle IR. Good relations or not is not an issue, didn't IR give BharathiRaaja a Nadodi Thendral after all that had happened before? And, can you say that BR had a better musical score in any of the films that came later?
  Listen to Guru & you'll then perhaps have a better definition of what "life" in a music is all about
  
  6. We'll concede your stand that ONLY songs are important as far as film music goes. For every MSV hit that reached the "paamaran", IR has atleast equal, if not more, credits to his name. Who else could have made absolute winners of such movies as "chinna thambi" or "karagattakkaran", in all centres (ABC..Z)of TN? If you want to take the "paravalaana" reach of songs alone as a criterion for argument, again IR would hopelessly outpace MSV as he's done many more songs without riding on the shoulders of megastars or megabanners.
  
  I don't think even the great MSV (no sarcasm here)would concede that IR didn't experiment and explore as much as MSV.
  
  Again and again, you're trying to turn the fact that IR was born later as his single biggest drawback, by saying MSV had no "paths" or "access" to the outside world. By that count, what did IR have? Was he tuned onto MTV or was he a regular at western classical or Carnatic concerts when he burst into TFM? In fact,considering all the handicaps that he had - his rural, semi-literate, class background - that he has achieved so much is no mean feat. The breakthrough that IR-BR-VM team made in TFM history is certainly among the most memorable efforts in Indian film history, even if you want to discount their merit.
  
  That there are so many of us animatedly discussing his songs even after a full 2 decades of listening to him should be sufficient proof that his music is not boring. Anyway, since you seem to consign our music tastes to the trash bin ever so often, pls. recall recent IR hits to prove that his songs still have mass appeal
  
  Your two factors of NOvelty, Inimai - both IR has in abundance and I don't have to stress further.
  
  "Uthiripookal" maadhiri movies: Karthi, we can give you a real long list, but let me ask your opinion on the foll.
  
  (A) All (or most) Mahendran, Bharathiraaja, KB, Mani Ratnam, Sridhar, Balu Mahendra, RV Udayakumar, Fazil, K Viswanath, Bharathan, Padmarajan, etc. etc.....
  (B)Not to mention his works for heroes such as - Kamal, Rajini, Karthik, Prabhu, Mohan, Ramarajan, Mohanlal, Mammootty, Chiranjeevi, etc..
  
  Now, will you brush away this as well? Or do you have a similar list for MSV?
  
  7. "IR never strived hard to bring out the best from singers?" Who has extracted the best of SPB, KJY,MV, SJ etc.better than him?
  "He utterly lost in getting them to modulate according to the actors"? No greater crime than MSV's use of TMS for MGR,Sivaji? I can still imagine TMS belting out for Sivaji a "Disco" song (Sandhippu)..
  
  Why 1 dozen songs, we can come up with atleast 120, if not 1200:) to prove IR's greatness. Anyway, to not let your challenge go unanswered, here is my list of 24:
  
  1) paruvame 2) andhi mazhai 3) e thendrale
  4) thoongadha vizhigal rendu 5)etho mogam 6) thendral vandhu 7) ponmaalai pozhudhu 8) om namaha
  9) kanne kalaimane 10) mounamana neram 11)en vaanile 12)kanmaniye kaadhal enbadhu 13) azhagiya kanne 14) uravugal thodarkathai 15) kalyana thenila 16) poove sempoove 17)thumbi vaa (olangal - Mal.) 18) kodiyile malliyappoo 19)thaalatudhe vanam 20)poongathu thirumbuma 21)maanguyile 22)maalayil yaaro 23)inji iduppazhaga 24) guru charanam (guru -Mal.)
  
  I was tempted to go for 120, but then I thought I'll spare you the trouble of having to come up with your 120 list:)))
  
  Catch you later!!
  
  
• From: Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Fri Feb 5 07:15:54 EST 1999
  
  Personally, I am a big fan of both these greats
  that you are discussing, and see little point in
  doing any comparison. But I just wanted to mention
  a recent TV programme that I saw on Vijay TV on
  Pongal day. There was a special interview (1 hour)
  with MSV and all kinds of questions were asked.
  One of the questions was: What do you think of IR?
  To that he said: Usually two famous artists don't
  get along in very close terms; but, we two for
  some special reason have an excellent understanding
  and appreciation of each other. Personally I
  feel he has gone well beyond what I achieved..
  particularly his contribution to WC. He took me
  and GKV on a private session and gave a special
  preview of the symphony that he created. It is a
  masterpiece!
  
  

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