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Indian (Tamil) Music compared to World Music

Topic started by raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on Sat Nov 10 18:50:14 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

u know, living in europe one comes in touch to a large variety of music...all that western stuff, from america till europe, everything...
the reason for this thread is the following:
when i sometimes listen to indian (tamil, malayalam, hindi etc.) music, i sometimes get this feeling as if it was so easy to compose songs like these...of course i see all those complex structures in ARR's and Ilayarajas compostitions (also in other mds), but still, when i then hear western stuff, all these loud things where don't know how many different sounds are played simultaneously to create a kind of weird effect, then, then all of a sudden i get this feeling that all that western stuff is much more complicated and 'great' than this 'easy' music composed in our india...
i would be thankful to u people if u could find solutions to this problem...i would like to hear how u people 'defend' indian music...tell me why indian music is much more complicated and well thought than i think...

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Mon Nov 12 00:53:12 EST 2001
  
  Caranatic music, just like western classical music, can be very repetitive and uninteresting when listened to in its purest form. When you start mixing the two in different genre's of music, then you can properly appreciate their beauty.
  
  Sam, nice point. It all depends on "what" we want a music to be and "where" we are in, while appreciating it. We feel that, in purest form, carnatic can be repetitive and boring. But shall we go one step ahead and define what does "purest form" mean? Or which part of the classical music(carnatic here) we refer as purest and hence feel boring?
  
  Let me take an example of the song Nee dhaya raadha a thyagaraja kriti sung by KJY in the film Sidhu Bhairavi. In this he sings the same line Nee dhaya raadha over and over again. To an ordinary music listener/lover it may sound boring, and repetitive. But to a pundit/student in Carnatic Classical Music(CCM) it would have been a good or great rendition because he is performing some Niraval/KalpanaSwara aalapana or whatever it is. It is really a great improvisation and intelligent stuff. So it all depends on "where" we are in while appreciating Classical music. Its not necessary that we need to be a pundit in the CCM to appreciate it. Those students and pundits who appreciated that nee dhaya raadha are not because of they knew that form of music but they try to appreciate it. We need that orientation in us, we need that inclination in us to appreciate it even if we are not technically sound. Being knowledgeble in CCM gave them the exposure to have the inclination to appreciate CCM. Classical Music is like the Grammar of a language. To a 10th std student who wants to score 420+ out of 500 for whom marks is major criteria (or) to another student who is more interested in maths/science, thamizh or sanskrit grammar would be damn boring. it would be a sort of headache/hurdle in his/her path of scoring. but grammar, in its pure form, is it really not fit to be appreciated and is it really boring? can we imagine a language flourishing without its grammar? They why those two 10th std students are not appreciating the grammar? Its because they are in somewhere else, and hence not inclined to appreciate it. thats all.
  
  
  Now, coming to the "what" part. Again, it all depends on what we want from a classical music and based on that only i.e wearing that coloured glass only we tend to appreciate/judge the classical music. if we feel that to impress upon us, a "grand", "rich" great amount of orchestration or whatever it is, is needed then we would tend to look upon the other person as even a "nut-case", who is very much impressed on that singer+violinist+mruthangam performers who impress him like anything through their performance when there is not even a microphone in front of those three. Still that "other person" would be commenting greatly about those three like anything. How it is possible? Its because CCM's greatness lies not in grandness but in something else which we might tend to ignore inadvertantly and that "other person" did not ignore it and wanted that form of CCM to come out like anything from that trio.
  
  So to appreciate beauty of a musical style, classical music for example that to CCM here, one need not have to mix/fuse it with other form (or) to metamorphise itself to other form to make it appreciable.
  
  Finally, World Music, fusion, in my understanding and IMHO, is attemped in all spheres. POP of west meeting easts light music; WCM meeting ICM. So we cannot just conclude that only one form of this fusion is helpful in appreciating this. Even in Indian Film music arena, the way ARR "mixes" music genres is entirely different from the way IR "mixes". One may like the former form while other like the latter. But we cannot say that "this MD's" style would be appreciable if he changes to "that MD's" style. Expecting chicken 65 is udipi is not appreciable :-)
  
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Mon Nov 12 00:53:19 EST 2001
  
  Caranatic music, just like western classical music, can be very repetitive and uninteresting when listened to in its purest form. When you start mixing the two in different genre's of music, then you can properly appreciate their beauty.
  
  Sam, nice point. It all depends on "what" we want a music to be and "where" we are in, while appreciating it. We feel that, in purest form, carnatic can be repetitive and boring. But shall we go one step ahead and define what does "purest form" mean? Or which part of the classical music(carnatic here) we refer as purest and hence feel boring?
  
  Let me take an example of the song Nee dhaya raadha a thyagaraja kriti sung by KJY in the film Sidhu Bhairavi. In this he sings the same line Nee dhaya raadha over and over again. To an ordinary music listener/lover it may sound boring, and repetitive. But to a pundit/student in Carnatic Classical Music(CCM) it would have been a good or great rendition because he is performing some Niraval/KalpanaSwara aalapana or whatever it is. It is really a great improvisation and intelligent stuff. So it all depends on "where" we are in while appreciating Classical music. Its not necessary that we need to be a pundit in the CCM to appreciate it. Those students and pundits who appreciated that nee dhaya raadha are not because of they knew that form of music but they try to appreciate it. We need that orientation in us, we need that inclination in us to appreciate it even if we are not technically sound. Being knowledgeble in CCM gave them the exposure to have the inclination to appreciate CCM. Classical Music is like the Grammar of a language. To a 10th std student who wants to score 420+ out of 500 for whom marks is major criteria (or) to another student who is more interested in maths/science, thamizh or sanskrit grammar would be damn boring. it would be a sort of headache/hurdle in his/her path of scoring. but grammar, in its pure form, is it really not fit to be appreciated and is it really boring? can we imagine a language flourishing without its grammar? They why those two 10th std students are not appreciating the grammar? Its because they are in somewhere else, and hence not inclined to appreciate it. thats all.
  
  
  Now, coming to the "what" part. Again, it all depends on what we want from a classical music and based on that only i.e wearing that coloured glass only we tend to appreciate/judge the classical music. if we feel that to impress upon us, a "grand", "rich" great amount of orchestration or whatever it is, is needed then we would tend to look upon the other person as even a "nut-case", who is very much impressed on that singer+violinist+mruthangam performers who impress him like anything through their performance when there is not even a microphone in front of those three. Still that "other person" would be commenting greatly about those three like anything. How it is possible? Its because CCM's greatness lies not in grandness but in something else which we might tend to ignore inadvertantly and that "other person" did not ignore it and wanted that form of CCM to come out like anything from that trio.
  
  So to appreciate beauty of a musical style, classical music for example that to CCM here, one need not have to mix/fuse it with other form (or) to metamorphise itself to other form to make it appreciable.
  
  Finally, World Music, fusion, in my understanding and IMHO, is attemped in all spheres. POP of west meeting easts light music; WCM meeting ICM. So we cannot just conclude that only one form of this fusion is helpful in appreciating this. Even in Indian Film music arena, the way ARR "mixes" music genres is entirely different from the way IR "mixes". One may like the former form while other like the latter. But we cannot say that "this MD's" style would be appreciable if he changes to "that MD's" style. Expecting chicken 65 in udipi is not appreciable :-)
  
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Mon Nov 12 00:55:00 EST 2001
  
  sorry for double posting...
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Mon Nov 12 00:55:56 EST 2001
  
  Kupps:
  
  I couldnt agree more!!
  
  Great posting!! Keep it up, it was real enjoyment for me!
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 212.140.121.194) on: Mon Nov 12 09:36:03 EST 2001
  
  Kupps,
  Beautifully put. U speak very well, and is nice to read. I totally agree with you on the 'where' and 'what'. raycas, i hope that all these different theories have helped you. I know it has made me think more and enhanced my understanding.
  Keep it up
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.250) on: Mon Nov 12 11:36:27 EST 2001
  
  Nice posting Kupps:)
  
  
• From: raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on: Mon Nov 12 13:45:52 EST 2001
  
  thank u sam and kupps for the enormous effort u have put in ur messages...this thread is going the right way...
  what sam said i understood i think...but kupps, what u wrote...bamm...need to reread it a couple of times...
  i don't know the song 'nee dhaya radha'...
  so u mean classical music is not something that u hear while u are jogging or while surfing in internet...okay, that's for sure...u need to take the interest to sit there and listen very, very carefully to this music, right? only then, u may be able to appreciate it the way it deserves...
  i think now i got what u are saying...
  hey, at this point, regarding ur sentence "In this he sings the same line Nee dhaya raadha over and over again. To an ordinary music listener/lover it may sound boring, and repetitive. But to a pundit/student in Carnatic Classical Music(CCM) it would have been a good or great rendition because he is performing some Niraval/KalpanaSwara aalapana or whatever it is" let me ask u a question about a song: hope u have heard the paarthale paravasam songs...this one song 'manmatha masam' sung by nithyasree and shankar mahadevan, in it the lines 'manmatha masam' are repeated so often, but in different styles...is it that what u meant? cause to me as a normal listener it sounded rather boring...but to a pundit/student in CCM it was a pleasure?
  hmm....well, interesting point...it's the way how u enjoy it, right? okay, that's good. but do u think someone like me (let's say a normal music listener without great knowledge in classical music) will ever reach those spheres where u can enjoy those 'high' things?
  so, if u see it like that...then it is perhaps really a good work (by ARR, Ilayaraja and other mds) in mixing the things and giving it in that way rather than giving it in the 'pure' form...
  
  sam, yeah i think now i am a bit more enlightened than before...it's becoming clearer...thanks to u all...
  but, others please also feel free to participate... would also like to hear other opinions/arguments...
  
  raycas.
  
  
• From: Sam Suriakumar (@ 212.140.157.211) on: Mon Nov 12 16:09:56 EST 2001
  
  Btw Raycas, have you checked out any of the caranatic artists?
  
  

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